I have to agree with Slamfire. Breaking both shoulders in a perfect world, and of course taking out the vitals, on paper sounds perfect. In reality, the bullet or ball may take a change of direction and not break the opposite shoulder. A deer can move very well on three legs. Even the best of plans and shots, doesn't mean the animal will absolutely drop in it's tracks. But we try to elliminate the possibilities through practice, in shooting skills, load developement, getting close and learning to track. :m2c:
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Hunting with Roundballs
- Thread starter Hoyt
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:agree: too...the high shoulder shot is outstanding in the high power rifle world because it takes out the spine and the animal drops dead...but without that tremendous shock power, the round ball simply breaks through shoulder bones and unless it luckily hits the spine the reuslts won't be the same.
But, I've had a couple situations where I've got the benefits of affecting mobility and the pump at the same time...front quartering shots at steep 45 degree down angles from a tree stand, breaking down the near shoulder and traveling on down through the heart lung area...they tried to get up but fell back down, tried to get up but fell, then it was over...both were with .54's as I recall.
KyFlintlock
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Hoyt,
Roundball hunting? I shoot 90gr of FF powder and a PRB and have killed plenty of deer (large and small) from 10-75 yards. The deer have gone from 0 -150 yards on these shots... The 2 deer that went 150 yards were both fatally shot (one heart, one double lung), but sometimes deer are just plain TOUGH!
The big thing for me is after the shot to KNOW the deer is hit/dead and to not doubt or let you mind start to wander if you missed. If'n you put that PRB in his lungs/heart he will be on the meatpole before the day is out.
Good luck this fall and PUT THE HAMMER ON EM"! :front:
Wess
Roundball hunting? I shoot 90gr of FF powder and a PRB and have killed plenty of deer (large and small) from 10-75 yards. The deer have gone from 0 -150 yards on these shots... The 2 deer that went 150 yards were both fatally shot (one heart, one double lung), but sometimes deer are just plain TOUGH!
The big thing for me is after the shot to KNOW the deer is hit/dead and to not doubt or let you mind start to wander if you missed. If'n you put that PRB in his lungs/heart he will be on the meatpole before the day is out.
Good luck this fall and PUT THE HAMMER ON EM"! :front:
Wess
RussB
45 Cal.
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roundball seez...."I also think there is a very important power factor associated with big projectiles that does not readily fit into the "power formulas" used to measure the relative power of projectices, ie: roundballs...the sheer size of their frontal area is present from the moment the ball touches the game and all the way through",.......
:imo: this is the whole thing in a nutshell. We are "conditioned" to think otherwise.
I feel strongly that something is amiss with how we figure energy in our ballistic formulas, when it comes to round ball and patch.
It has often been said that today's energy formulas were cooked up by a High School drop-out with too much time on his hands.
There may be some truth in that, I dunnno. But, as we are all aware, certain calibers, bullets, and bullet styles, do things well beyond the probability of their "published" paper ballistics.
A roundball kills quite well, within it's range, and one can never count on a game animal doing anything but running when it is hit....how far it runs, and how it initially reacts to the hit is based on many, many, many factors, with the most important factor being where , and at what angle the animal was hit.....not necessarily with what it was hit with.
If there should be a reason for the roundball not killing well, I would place the fault at marksmanship, and range, with the biggest portion of this "blame" going to marksmanship.
Having said that, I feel I should also say that, "the day I loose the excitement of the shot, is the day I quite hunting".
Russ
:imo: this is the whole thing in a nutshell. We are "conditioned" to think otherwise.
I feel strongly that something is amiss with how we figure energy in our ballistic formulas, when it comes to round ball and patch.
It has often been said that today's energy formulas were cooked up by a High School drop-out with too much time on his hands.
There may be some truth in that, I dunnno. But, as we are all aware, certain calibers, bullets, and bullet styles, do things well beyond the probability of their "published" paper ballistics.
A roundball kills quite well, within it's range, and one can never count on a game animal doing anything but running when it is hit....how far it runs, and how it initially reacts to the hit is based on many, many, many factors, with the most important factor being where , and at what angle the animal was hit.....not necessarily with what it was hit with.
If there should be a reason for the roundball not killing well, I would place the fault at marksmanship, and range, with the biggest portion of this "blame" going to marksmanship.
Having said that, I feel I should also say that, "the day I loose the excitement of the shot, is the day I quite hunting".
Russ
Tahquamenon
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I prefer 50cal or larger PRB for Deer on up.
Deer and other animals will do strange things after being shot.
Some lay down as if you just pushed them over, others will simply mosey on along and some will run like a race horse.
Shot placement aside (which is crucial).
One think I've noticed over the years is that deer tend to drop more rapidly the more relaxed they were when they were first shot.
If they do run at all, the deer I've killed in the early am often run the least.
When deer have their adrenaline pumped up from running or from being very nervous or if they have winded something that has them on edge, they tend to be more resilient to being shot and takes longer to succumb to the injuries. They can reflex run for really great distances.
Also, after you shoot you should wait and stay put for about 10-20 minutes if the deer does run to where you cannot see them. And for at least 10 minutes if you can see to observe what they do. This is really hard to do as your adrenaline is charging by this point.
Gives you time to reload and collect yourself.
If they don't feel pursued, they will often lay down and stiffen up sooner.
If you go on hot pursuit right after you shoot, you can often end up driving the wounded animal farther that if you had waited.
Plus, I've gotten nice follow-up shots on other deer while reloading and waiting for the first one to lay down.
:imo:
Deer and other animals will do strange things after being shot.
Some lay down as if you just pushed them over, others will simply mosey on along and some will run like a race horse.
Shot placement aside (which is crucial).
One think I've noticed over the years is that deer tend to drop more rapidly the more relaxed they were when they were first shot.
If they do run at all, the deer I've killed in the early am often run the least.
When deer have their adrenaline pumped up from running or from being very nervous or if they have winded something that has them on edge, they tend to be more resilient to being shot and takes longer to succumb to the injuries. They can reflex run for really great distances.
Also, after you shoot you should wait and stay put for about 10-20 minutes if the deer does run to where you cannot see them. And for at least 10 minutes if you can see to observe what they do. This is really hard to do as your adrenaline is charging by this point.
Gives you time to reload and collect yourself.
If they don't feel pursued, they will often lay down and stiffen up sooner.
If you go on hot pursuit right after you shoot, you can often end up driving the wounded animal farther that if you had waited.
Plus, I've gotten nice follow-up shots on other deer while reloading and waiting for the first one to lay down.
:imo:
Speaking of energy formula's just for curiosity I did a check to see how a .54cal. would stack up in the Taylor Knockdown Formula (TKO).
Using a .54Cal. 226grs. 530rb. at 1000fps I get a TK0 value of 17.
Figure a 7mag. 150gr. ballistic tip @ 3000fps. I get TKO value of 18.
Using a .54Cal. 226grs. 530rb. at 1000fps I get a TK0 value of 17.
Figure a 7mag. 150gr. ballistic tip @ 3000fps. I get TKO value of 18.
Not that I'm morbid or anything, but I'd love to see a slow motion video of a round ball hitting a deer in the chest. I have a theory that the impact is slow and over a wide area as the ball punches through the hide (as opposed to a fast moving, high density bullet that enters and then transmits shock). I think the deer physically has the air punched out of its lungs. I swear I've heard them "Chuff!" when hit. If you've ever been punched or taken a hardball in the solar-plexus and had the "wind knocked out of you" you know how immobalizing that is.
A heart shot kills a deer in seven seconds or so, but a deer that bolts at the instant it sees/hears you can still get a long ways. A deer that has to start without a breath and is also suffering rapid exsanguinuation (the only network TV I watch is CSI :: ) seems to pile up quicker in my experience; 32 deer with a relatively slow-moving, solid lead projectile (I confess: I used to use Maxi-Hunters and R.E.A.L.s before I got straighted out).
The double-lung shots have always dropped in zero to 50 yards. (My two this past season that just dropped & flopped - God be praised). I've had heart shots go 100 yards plus; though most are much less so.
A heart shot kills a deer in seven seconds or so, but a deer that bolts at the instant it sees/hears you can still get a long ways. A deer that has to start without a breath and is also suffering rapid exsanguinuation (the only network TV I watch is CSI :: ) seems to pile up quicker in my experience; 32 deer with a relatively slow-moving, solid lead projectile (I confess: I used to use Maxi-Hunters and R.E.A.L.s before I got straighted out).
The double-lung shots have always dropped in zero to 50 yards. (My two this past season that just dropped & flopped - God be praised). I've had heart shots go 100 yards plus; though most are much less so.
Tahquamenon
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And again at 100 yards?
I don't know what the .54cal's velocity would be at 100yds..but if it lost about half of the 1000fps..TKO would be 8 to 10. That still puts it in the deer hunting catagory according to the site about TKO. The 7mag would be 17.
I guess that's why everybody says to keep the roundball shots under 100yds and preferably under 75yds.
I can't find a site that gives blackpowder, roundball velocities.
I guess I could go buy another book..Lyman's Blackpowder book.
TKO info.. TKO INFO
I guess that's why everybody says to keep the roundball shots under 100yds and preferably under 75yds.
I can't find a site that gives blackpowder, roundball velocities.
I guess I could go buy another book..Lyman's Blackpowder book.
TKO info.. TKO INFO
Just wanted to add :m2c:
Double lunged a sow last fall that was probably about 180 lbs. Base of my stand to the bait pile she was in was 9 paces. Yeah, I was close, but she was on her back dead by the time the smoke cleared. 80 gr FFg behind a .490 roundball.
Double lunged a sow last fall that was probably about 180 lbs. Base of my stand to the bait pile she was in was 9 paces. Yeah, I was close, but she was on her back dead by the time the smoke cleared. 80 gr FFg behind a .490 roundball.
Well then why didn't he just say it bled out so the rest of us non-intellectual types could unsderstand him. :crackup:
I bought a cheap flinter to try hunting with one. I sighted it in at 50 yards and practised enough to be pretty confident at anything under that. I crossed the lake and slipped up to the spot I planned to watch from. A nice buck came slipping down the hill thru some cedars one toe over. He turned, headed my way and I was already set. He reversed his course and I thought maybe he had gotten a wiff of my scent. He stopped in the clear at a little over 60 yards quartering away. I squeezed the shot off and when it went boom, it looked very good. The smoke cleared and all I could see was a light brown patch on the ground where I had shot that I had not seen before then. I was all excited. Not only did I get my first flinter buck, but he dropped on the spot. I wiped the gun and reloaded. When I got to the spot, it was a scrape on the ground, not the deer. Now, I never saw the deer run because of terrain and the smoke. I never heard so much as a twig break after the shot, but I was hunting on the bank of a lake and the shot noise had set off a chain reaction of ducks and geese to go with the noise of the shot. I started to circle. No blood. I walked all of the trails down that side of the lake. Not a speck of blood found. I circled back to where I had shot. I went to the top of the hill and checked the trails coming out into the feild. I slipped up on a doe but would not shoot because I was sure I had hit that buck hard. I started down a road the goes around the lake looking for sign the deer had crossed. It was getting dark and I was 1000 yards or so from where I had shot on the back side of the lake with no luck. I decided to wade thru the brush to the end of the lake and work my way back to the boat and go get lights. I found him on my way back to the boat where he had leaped about a 15 foot creek bed and died. I found him because I am too stupid to quit when I am sure of the shot, and because I was looking for an easy way across the ditch so I could get back to the boat. There were a few drops of blood where he fell, but I never did see a single speck on my way from where he fell to get the boat. The ball entered near the back edge of the ribcage and exited just about where you would want to hit one standing broadside. The shot was not that far off the mark, but it was a little far back. I had mis read the correct angle he was quartering away I guess. The deer had traveled about 400 yards thru a multi-flora tangle you have to be in to believe. I am an experienced tracker and I am hard headed enough to spend a long time looking for a deer. It was still luck and persistance that recovered that deer. .495 round ball over 70 grains of Graf's/Shuetzen out of a carbine. The ball went all the way thru but he did not bleed as he ran.
If that had been an REAL bullet, the damage would have been greater and the exit hole larger. If it had been a Maxi-ball, same way. Both of them would have offered a much better chance of trailing the deer to where it dropped. If it had been the Lee Target Mini, he would not have gone half that far most likely, and the exit hole would have been much bigger. Had it been a Hornady 385, most likely the deer would have died within 100 yards of where he was hit and trailing him to there would have been no problem.
On a prefect broadside shot into the heart lung complex, the roundball will usually exit and even if the wound channel does not provide a good trail, the nostril blood does. On hits that are less than optimum, the roundball often does not exit and often does not offer a bloodtrail if it does. Combined with the smaller wound channel allowing the game to go farther before they drop, this is a recipe for losing injured game hit with a fatal shot.
If you are willing to wait for the perfect shot with in a range that you can precisely place your shot, the 50 roundball is a good hunting tool. If you are not willing to wait for the broadside boiler room shot or plan to shoot at 100 yards or greater, then put a conical in your gun. Historic accuracy be darned.
I hunt with PRB's over 70 grains of 3f black in all my 50's. A couple handle more powder well, but I target shoot with 70 and the guns are all very accurate at that level. I will not shoot at a 100 yard dear with that load. I try to stay at 60 yards or less with caplock and 50 or less with the Flinter. The 60 yard shot I took at the buck was a very long shot with the flinter for me. If I wanted to shoot at 100 yards, I would be shooting the Lee Target mini in a couple of guns, the Lee REAL in a couple, and the 385 Hornady in one. All of them are better deer bullets than the roundball at any range. Past fifty yards, they are much better deer bullets. At 100 yards, there is no comparing a round ball to any of them. They are in an entirely different class.
A dedicated round ball gun for deer should be at least a 50. 54 or 58 are better. The shots should be kept to the range where you can hit the bottom of a soda can off hand regularly. When you go past where you can keep them in a 6 inch circle regularly, then you are shooting too far for roundball.
Down off soap box. Don't put a beginner in the place of wandering around hoping to get lucky and find the deer they are sure they hit. Put a conical in their gun until they decide they want to use roundball and you are sure they know what that means.
If that had been an REAL bullet, the damage would have been greater and the exit hole larger. If it had been a Maxi-ball, same way. Both of them would have offered a much better chance of trailing the deer to where it dropped. If it had been the Lee Target Mini, he would not have gone half that far most likely, and the exit hole would have been much bigger. Had it been a Hornady 385, most likely the deer would have died within 100 yards of where he was hit and trailing him to there would have been no problem.
On a prefect broadside shot into the heart lung complex, the roundball will usually exit and even if the wound channel does not provide a good trail, the nostril blood does. On hits that are less than optimum, the roundball often does not exit and often does not offer a bloodtrail if it does. Combined with the smaller wound channel allowing the game to go farther before they drop, this is a recipe for losing injured game hit with a fatal shot.
If you are willing to wait for the perfect shot with in a range that you can precisely place your shot, the 50 roundball is a good hunting tool. If you are not willing to wait for the broadside boiler room shot or plan to shoot at 100 yards or greater, then put a conical in your gun. Historic accuracy be darned.
I hunt with PRB's over 70 grains of 3f black in all my 50's. A couple handle more powder well, but I target shoot with 70 and the guns are all very accurate at that level. I will not shoot at a 100 yard dear with that load. I try to stay at 60 yards or less with caplock and 50 or less with the Flinter. The 60 yard shot I took at the buck was a very long shot with the flinter for me. If I wanted to shoot at 100 yards, I would be shooting the Lee Target mini in a couple of guns, the Lee REAL in a couple, and the 385 Hornady in one. All of them are better deer bullets than the roundball at any range. Past fifty yards, they are much better deer bullets. At 100 yards, there is no comparing a round ball to any of them. They are in an entirely different class.
A dedicated round ball gun for deer should be at least a 50. 54 or 58 are better. The shots should be kept to the range where you can hit the bottom of a soda can off hand regularly. When you go past where you can keep them in a 6 inch circle regularly, then you are shooting too far for roundball.
Down off soap box. Don't put a beginner in the place of wandering around hoping to get lucky and find the deer they are sure they hit. Put a conical in their gun until they decide they want to use roundball and you are sure they know what that means.
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My poor whimpy seven ga. only has a KO of 137. Makes it look like a small game outfit compare to the 4ga.
1000 grain ball at 1100fps with a dia of .875
This is one of the guns that lets you say "when the smoke cleared"
1000 grain ball at 1100fps with a dia of .875
This is one of the guns that lets you say "when the smoke cleared"
