Hydrostatic or blood loss?

[Carl Fowler III]

Recent post got me to thinking about what actually kills big game we shoot! Being an avid archer I know with a sharp broadhead the loss of blood and therefore the lack of oxygen to the brain is what actually kills the animal...and that in a high powered rifle the hydrostatic shock to the vital organs and disruption of the same killed the animal.

So what happens when a big game animal is hit with a slower moving round ball? Is it the hydrostatic shock or the blood loss that kills? Or maybe it is a combination of the two....what think ye? :hmm:

 

[Richard Brinkman]

Yep! I have killed several with a round ball where blood loss didn't kill'em. Looked like to me they died about the same time as they hit the ground. The secret here is to use big enough ball and enough powder to get the job done. I believe in overkill X 2.

RB

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I don't think that you have enough impact velocity to get much hydrostatic damage as you'd get from say a .308, 35 Whelen, etc. unless you were right on top of the animal and had a very hot load.

Big game animals, I think, when hit with round ball and go directly down or only move a short distance, are killed from heart damage, damage to both lungs, or neural damage to the brain or the spine (or a combination of these). Hits in those areas even when the brain or spine are not damaged often overwhelm the animal's nervous system causing unconsciousness followed by death. The hits need to be delivered by the actual path of the projectile, for little if any pressure wave is formed.

Nathan Foster of Terminal Ballistics Research published an opinion that on animals larger than whitetail deer, the impact velocity of a hunting bullet needed to be 2600 fps. A researcher named Dave Ehrig says that impact velocity of at least 1100 fps are needed for any such shock to take place.

LD

 

[GaCop]

I don't think that you have enough impact velocity to get much hydrostatic damage as you'd get from say a .308, 35 Whelen, etc. unless you were right on top of the animal and had a very hot load.

Big game animals, I think, when hit with round ball and go directly down or only move a short distance, are killed from heart damage, damage to both lungs, or neural damage to the brain or the spine (or a combination of these). Hits in those areas even when the brain or spine are not damaged often overwhelm the animal's nervous system causing unconsciousness followed by death. The hits need to be delivered by the actual path of the projectile, for little if any pressure wave is formed.

Nathan Foster of Terminal Ballistics Research published an opinion that on animals larger than whitetail deer, the impact velocity of a hunting bullet needed to be 2600 fps. A researcher named Dave Ehrig says that impact velocity of at least 1100 fps are needed for any such shock to take place.

LD

I agree, a round ball is a poor projectle to transfer energy to the game animal so hitting vital organs or short circuiting the nervous system is paramount to a quick kill.

Tom

 

[Dphar]

Recent post got me to thinking about what actually kills big game we shoot! Being an avid archer I know with a sharp broadhead the loss of blood and therefore the lack of oxygen to the brain is what actually kills the animal...and that in a high powered rifle the hydrostatic shock to the vital organs and disruption of the same killed the animal.

So what happens when a big game animal is hit with a slower moving round ball? Is it the hydrostatic shock or the blood loss that kills? Or maybe it is a combination of the two....what think ye? :hmm:

The only kill I have ever seen that I attributed to hydrostatic shock was an Antelope Buck I shot with a guys 270. 130 gr bullet. 150 yards maybe. Bellied up on a little high ground and got the scope on the buck just as he started to trot right to left. Swung the x-hairs to his lower neck and pressed the trigger. Buck went down like he was struck by lightning and never wiggled. As we approached he started to kick a little. I must have continued the swing as a moved the x-hairs for a lead cause the bullet struck just about point of aim. Cut all the veins and arteries. I assume the HV bullet ran a shock wave up the column of blood to the brain. Or maybe it just shocked the spine.
IMO hydrostatic shock only works on critters coyote size and under and it certainly does not work on most animals at typical BP velocities. Though I did disintegrate a good sized Prairie Dog with a 450 BPE once with a soft light PP bullet once at about 40 yards.
While bullets have more effect, generally, than arrows, probably as a result of energy transfer, at BP velocities unless the electrical system is short circuited they stay up till the brain runs out of oxygen.

Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

The deer I have killed with an ml have all been .45 cal. prb and moderate (65 gr.) charges. All have been in the well known 'kill zone'. All dropped where they stood or went no further than what I call two "reaction leaps". Same with those I have killed with modern rifle. Placement, placement, placement. On most the heart was detached from aorta and other major arteries. I have a tendancy to hold a tad high but it works.
Meat loss from hydrostatic shock is almost nil with the round ball. A friend who uses a .270 loses about one fourth of his meat on a whitetail due to blood shock. Yuk.

 

[Archie]

I THINK I know when I have accomplished HS on deer. (WARNING: I think I know alot more than I probably do) :idunno: The deer drops on the shot and MIGHT after a few seconds starts to "run" while laying on its side(it does not actually get up and run) until it bleeds out. The shock comes from the compression of brain material from the shock transfered through the blood (blood or liquid does not compress) and "knocks out" the animal and drops it to the shot. (I hope that makes sense) :hmm:

ff To achieve hydrostatic shock requires a fast expanding bullet at a velocity that will open the bullet inside "boiler room" of the animal. Too slow the bullet won't expand quickly enough, too fast and it will either expand too quicky or fragment. It will not work if you shoot it in the hind quarter or gut. The nosler ballistic tip and combined technology silver tips in .243",.264", .277" and .284" at 2700 to 2900 fps have been very good at this for me. The Hornady SSTs in those calibers work also but not as consistanly for some reason. I have not been able to accomplish this with .323" (8X57).338 (.338-06), .358 (.35 whelen) and .458 (.45-70) bullets because the loads I was using will not produce enough velocity for those bullets to expand fast enough(IMNSHO). I doubt any round ball or non hollow point lead bullet could ever move fast enough or expand in a way to accomplish this.

 

[crockett]

I'd say blood loss kills and not hydrostatic shock. The impact of the bullet may knock the animal over even if there isn't any hydrostatic shock. How far the animal runs is a different issue dealing with where it was hit.
By hydrostatic shock, I take it you mean major surrounding tissue damage outside of the bullet path that is permanent and from the shock of bullet impact.

 

[longcruise]

One can hit a deer or elk sized animal with a modern bullet packing several thousan fpe and not get good results. Some bullets will completely come apart on the shoulder and never get past the ribs. Just blow a huge crater in the animals upper leg. That is an animal that can live for weeks if not tracked down.

The *energy dump* theory just does not wash with me. I think that the round ball and the broadhead have much more in common than is apparent. Both kill by blood loss or loss of blood pressure. Both are capable of traversing the boiler room and puncturing the lungs of a big game animal without the need for high levels of energy. Both penetrate on momentum with the heavier arrow and the heavier ball penetrating better and with velocity/energy playing a lesser role than we might imagine.

 

[George T.]

I have cleaned 5 deer that were killed with a 40 and three that were killed with a 50. On the 50 kills there was no recovered ball as all exited.
The exit hole was about twice the size as the entry wound. On the 40's all balls were recovered under the off side hide about the sice of a nickle sized dome. On the hide where the ball stopped there was a poker chip sized bruse.

As a Jack O Conner trained 270 winchester hunter I can tell you that there was very little blood shot meat on the deer killed with a MLR. Now we can assume that all of the 40's delivered the available energy to the deer. The 50's had some residual energy when they exited.

The 40' load was a .395 96 grain pure lead ball ober 90 grains of 3F. The 50's were .495 balls over 100 grains of 2F. One deer killed with the 50 dropped right where he stood due to a spine shot. All others went 35 to 60 yards and simply fell over. No real drams. I think the fact that they were double lung hits contributed to their demise.

That is what I have seen with my own two eyes. Very little blood loss or tissue destruction jusy swift humain kills. As I usually say "you can eat right up to the bullet holes". I guess that I should add that these were 100 to 110 pound Texas hill country deer. Geo. T.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

One can hit a deer or elk sized animal with a modern bullet packing several thousand fps and not get good results. Some bullets will completely come apart on the shoulder and never get past the ribs. Just blow a huge crater in the animals upper leg. That is an animal that can live for weeks if not tracked down.

The *energy dump* theory just does not wash with me. I think that the round ball and the broadhead have much more in common than is apparent. Both kill by blood loss or loss of blood pressure. Both are capable of traversing the boiler room and puncturing the lungs of a big game animal without the need for high levels of energy. Both penetrate on momentum with the heavier arrow and the heavier ball penetrating better and with velocity/energy playing a lesser role than we might imagine.

Your belief aligns with mine, I don't think the RB at these velocity kills like a high powered bullet does at their higher velocity's but more like a broadhead does thru blood loss and oxygen loss to the brain! This is a good reason to shoot a RB and load that will completely penetrate the intended animal to be hunted...this way leaving a good blood trail to follow! :v

 

[Archie]

Hydrostatic shock is a term used to describe the theory that a remote wound caused by the impact of a bullet results in neurological incapacitation. The theory is defined by the event of a pressure wave that travels from the remote wound to central nervous system of a human or game animal. The effect of the pressure wave is to disrupt the central nervous system in such a way as to cause instant incapacitation and or death of the living target. http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

 

[Archie]

Catastrophic loss of hydraulic fluid will cause aeration in the pump and loss of hydraulic pressure. If not promptly repaired will result in complete system failure.

Death by ventilation.

 

[hanshi]

While this is just my opinion, it is based on extensive experience killing deer with more calibers than I can remember including prb from muzzleloaders. Included, here, is the fact that I've also had experience in the effectiveness of trauma applied to bodily systems. I'm not remotely an expert.

For the most part (or all of it) I consider hydrostatic shock, energy dumping, dwell time, etc, to be balderdash. Any applications would be rare and very specific and out of the province of ML hunters in particular. Deer can be killed, like anything else, by blood loss, nervous system failure and massive internal injury resulting in multiple systems failure.

How these effect death are constrained by condition of the animal, whether inhaling or exhaling when shot (probably a major factor), oxygenation levels, psychological (yes) factors, adrenalin levels, hormone levels, time of day, moon phases, curses and mojos, etc. A prb kills simply by causing internal trauma as it does in other creatures including man. I've had them drop in their footie prints from a double lung shot and have had them run a few yards without a heart. I have had them drop in their tracks from such massive blood loss that the brain - not quite oxygenated enough - was deprived of ANY oxygen so abruptly it basically caused them to faint seconds before brain death.

In short, forget gimmicks and theories. Multiple organ failure kills and kills quickly. This is easily accomplished with a prb that can make it through the vitals regardless of velocity. Energy doesn't kill them, and neither is it "wasted" if it goes all the way through. Prb doesn't "dump" anything unless it's the game. The only "shock" is when they wake up in your smoker. HS is a myth with no home. Repeat after me; "ball exits barrel, hits deer, goes through the vitals, deer drops DRT or a bit later depending on your aim". Clean deer and go home.

 

[Dphar]

I don't think that you have enough impact velocity to get much hydrostatic damage as you'd get from say a .308, 35 Whelen, etc. unless you were right on top of the animal and had a very hot load.

Big game animals, I think, when hit with round ball and go directly down or only move a short distance, are killed from heart damage, damage to both lungs, or neural damage to the brain or the spine (or a combination of these). Hits in those areas even when the brain or spine are not damaged often overwhelm the animal's nervous system causing unconsciousness followed by death. The hits need to be delivered by the actual path of the projectile, for little if any pressure wave is formed.

Nathan Foster of Terminal Ballistics Research published an opinion that on animals larger than whitetail deer, the impact velocity of a hunting bullet needed to be 2600 fps. A researcher named Dave Ehrig says that impact velocity of at least 1100 fps are needed for any such shock to take place.

LD

I agree, a round ball is a poor projectle to transfer energy to the game animal so hitting vital organs or short circuiting the nervous system is paramount to a quick kill.

Tom

HITTING VITAL ORGANS IS PARAMOUNT TO ANY PROJECTILE.



This is why supposedly inadequate cartridges like 22 rf will kill deer with chest shots.
The hunter is not shooting at the ANIMAL he is shooting at the ORGANS that let the animal live.
Does not matter WHAT the projectile is if the projectile will penetrate and disable the organ or cause a massive leak in an artery.
And as I have pointed out before counting on energy as a killing mechanism is a mistake.
NO BP cartridge transfers energy as a HV expanding or frangible bullet will. But some of these FAIL TO PENETRATE if the impact velocity is too high for the bullet design. I have for example, seen 6" or less penetration from a 180 gr 300 Weatherby Mag FACTORY round on elk at 40 yards. A friend saw the same thing with THREE shots from a 264.
The 300 WM shot only stopped the elk because it penetrated to the projection off the top of the spine. The Elk then bled to death from a previous shot that had cut his throat. The third shot with the 264 also hit a shallow bone, the neck and stopped the elk. The two in the shoulders FAILED TO REACH THE VITALS.
Even though the elk had absorbed full energy of two 264 Win mag rounds at about 40 yards.
In BOTH these cases a LOW ENERGY BP load, be it a 45-70 or a 50-54 RB, would have performed BETTER.
Now had either of these elk been shot at 300 yards the penetration would have been enhanced. But in the timber where we were both hunting long shots are rare.
Then there are antelope found wounded with dinner plate sized shallow wounds from HV loads violently failing and the animal escaped for me to find and mercy kill as it lay on the ground.
I have NEVER had a RB fail to penetrate adequately in any animal I have shot with them or the ones I have witnessed shot by hunting companions.
Energy is only useful if combined with adequate penetration. But its NOT an indicator of penetrating power. Its a guide that works best with modern HV loads. Failure to penetrate plagues many modern handgun magnums when used for big game hunting. As a result very hard cast blunt bullets are loaded in many factory bear loads. Many handgun hunters hand load similar hard cast bullets. While it reduced energy transfer they PENETRATE better than jacketed handgun bullets.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

Hydrostatic shock is a term used to describe the theory that a remote wound caused by the impact of a bullet results in neurological incapacitation. The theory is defined by the event of a pressure wave that travels from the remote wound to central nervous system of a human or game animal. The effect of the pressure wave is to disrupt the central nervous system in such a way as to cause instant incapacitation and or death of the living target. http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Good theory but we have to remember that lungs for example are almost all air. So the gelatin blocks while useful in comparisons do not necessarily give an accurate representation of performance on game.
All the Hollywood manure aside bullets do not blow large animals or people apart so when you see a 50 caliber Browning MG bullet blowing apart a block of Jello or a watermelon, it's not what happens when they hit people. They don't go very far but they are not blown apart.
While the block of gel illustrates what the projectile is capable of in a certain medium, its not necessarily what happens in actual use against living targets.

Dan

 

[mattybock]

You're right as rain with blood loss. Every single mammal (including humans) has died of one thing since the beginning of the species - lack of oxygenated blood to the core of the brain.
Hydrostatic shock (whoppin' power) just speeds up the process because it ruptures all kinds of tissue and blood vessels along the way.

 

[tenngun]

I think Dan is right that Lungs are air and its tearing bleeding holes through chest that makes quick kills.Gelitn shows a shock wave visibly but it is just a model,not what goes on in the real world.On the other hand we need to think about electic in the heart and muscles of the chest.When 3-600 ft-lbs hit the chest even if it missis the heart the shock of the blow can cause a fatal arrythmia to the heart.Just as a baseball to the chest can cause the heart to beat so fast it cant move blood or just wiggle and not beat at all.Most of the time the heart can correct itself.The hunted animal doesn't get the chance, its pouring blood in to the lungs,out holes, and in to the chest cavity.Lots of folks like to hunt with little guns,but the other side likes big holes.Blood not getting to the brain is what kills,All the stuff we do is just a way to interrupt that.The killing is a little bit of everything,mostly the shooter is more important then shockwaves.Dan posted a photo of big ball damage to tissue. there is a gaping wound that moved a lot of blood out of the circultory system,and not much shock damage around it. :hmm:

 

[S.Kenton]

While this is just my opinion, it is based on extensive experience killing deer with more calibers than I can remember including prb from muzzleloaders. Included, here, is the fact that I've also had experience in the effectiveness of trauma applied to bodily systems. I'm not remotely an expert.

For the most part (or all of it) I consider hydrostatic shock, energy dumping, dwell time, etc, to be balderdash. Any applications would be rare and very specific and out of the province of ML hunters in particular. Deer can be killed, like anything else, by blood loss, nervous system failure and massive internal injury resulting in multiple systems failure.

How these effect death are constrained by condition of the animal, whether inhaling or exhaling when shot (probably a major factor), oxygenation levels, psychological (yes) factors, adrenalin levels, hormone levels, time of day, moon phases, curses and mojos, etc. A prb kills simply by causing internal trauma as it does in other creatures including man. I've had them drop in their footie prints from a double lung shot and have had them run a few yards without a heart. I have had them drop in their tracks from such massive blood loss that the brain - not quite oxygenated enough - was deprived of ANY oxygen so abruptly it basically caused them to faint seconds before brain death.

In short, forget gimmicks and theories. Multiple organ failure kills and kills quickly. This is easily accomplished with a prb that can make it through the vitals regardless of velocity. Energy doesn't kill them, and neither is it "wasted" if it goes all the way through. Prb doesn't "dump" anything unless it's the game. The only "shock" is when they wake up in your smoker. HS is a myth with no home. Repeat after me; "ball exits barrel, hits deer, goes through the vitals, deer drops DRT or a bit later depending on your aim". Clean deer and go home.

WELL SAID! I am an total agreement with ya...I too have killed more deer than I can remember with a 45 cal and a 50. I would say the majority of my M'ler kills were dead before they hit the ground..I am also an avid archer and can say that I've stuck a more than enough deer that died in there tracks, while others ran for a bit before expiring. I think it's all about the shot placement and making sure ya have enough power coming out of your barrel or kinetic energy coming from your arrow..

 

[George T.]

Again I agree that is why I pointed out the double lung as in archery being important. I have often talked with friends about the fact that our hill country 100 pound deer are a half inch on both side of meat and bone seperated by 8 to 10 inches of warm humid air.

I have had deer shot thru the lungs with a modern high velocity rifle go a whole lot farther than I ever had with a MLR. The damage is much worse but the deer run a shorter distance when shot with a MLR. Geo. T.