I have to rethink the spare cylinder idea

[Smokerr]

Pure conjecture but the fire may have weakened the case before a kaboom. Annealing temp is 500 deg and I forget for how long. 30 minutes as I recall and the higher the temp the quicker the loss. Not sure how it does or does not apply to pistol cases as anneal I work with is purely rifle. Pistol cases will have a heat treat of some kind.

Regarding a loaded cap'ed cylinder going off, I would not worry about it hurting. Even modern cased ammo when ignited outside of a barrel, does nothing. Barely even feel it through turnout gear.

Agreed we are casual about cased ammo and it gets strewn around sometimes. Yes a cap is probably easier to set off but it also take a fair amount of force and well directed.

Depending on where the cylinder was, it well could hurt, powder burns if nothing else. But I doubt fatal.

I will be interested to see if KingofKindling can get chrono results. LabRadar might do it on bow setting with the trigger device.

​

 

[rodwha]

That would be an interesting velocity test to see how much is generated from a loaded cylinder. I bet it would certainly break the skin though.
I guess one would have to screw the barrel off and fire through the frame of a .58 Rem and try to get one through the screens for a velocity read which would be tough at ten feet or so.
I know the Deringer .41 rimfire with a 1.5- 2 inch barrel would put a slug well into a persons intestines to die a miserable death a week later.

I’ve been rather surprised looking at the velocity loss just from a standard full length barrel to the shorter 5.5” barrel. A cylinder loaded with 30 grns would leave less than an inch. I tried running the Swiss calculator to 1/2” of barrel but it won’t calculate. It will with 1” and it shows 288 fps with 25 ft/lbs. So standard Goex might not break the skin but Swiss might. Not really sure how much damage that would do. Not quite an inch left so maybe the figure given for Swiss is a little high.

While searching once again to see if I can find that site I found smoothshooter speaking of the velocity being 140-175 fps. Hard to say if his numbers came from that site or somewhere else though.

 

[rodwha]

Would there be less velocity if the ball was seated flush with the cylinder face or 1/2" deep?

Yes. It needs chamber/barrel space to build up pressures and burn the powder. If there’s not enough space it just cannot get up to speed.

 

[rodwha]

I've had two chainfires in my life, both were when I was still greasing the cylinder mouths. Although I honestly suspect one chainfire occurred because I was using #11 caps and one fell off. I'm not sure dropping a capped cylinder and a chainfire is an apples to apples comparison. The ball ricocheting of the frame, even slightly, would reduce velocity and therefor the energy. At one point in the American South West it was not unusual to find a SAA that has been "Mexicanized" by removing the barrel and ejector assembly to convert it into a pocket pistol. Not a lot of velocity but sufficient for across the card table distances. I have to think a dropped percussion cylinder, if the caps actually ignited, would have similar results. I also believe that caps would have to strike just right on a very hard surface, something highly unlikely in most of the Midwest or West in the 1800s. The cylinder landing on sod or sand and maybe even wood, would probably not cause the caps to ignite. The last time I was at the Log Cabin Shop they had a few odd percussion cylinders fairly cheap. This has me curious enough to pick up a couple different styles of cylinders and do drop tests. I think caps, corn meal filler and lead balls would be a good and safe duplication of dropping a loaded cylinder.

I don’t recall exactly how they conducted their test and that site seems to be gone. However the ball did not hit the frame and had to go in the direction intended so as to use the chronograph without fear of destroying it or anything else.

 

[nick_1]

I wouldn't even bother the time and powder for velocity tests unless I could first get a capped cylinder to fire by dropping it.

 

[springfield art]

It is not an impossibility but I still think spare cylinders had a spare revolver wrapped around them.

I tend to agree w. WalnutRed. There's no one hard or fast answer, maybe a bit of both....

 

[nick_1]

There is a massive amount of evidence that folks who intended to get in scraps and lively fights as they were called at the time carried multiple revolvers. I personally have not read any evidence of spare cylinder swap.

 

[KingOfKindling]

The weather did not cooperate yesterday, constant storming. Today is looking quite nice however.

Got some real world work to get finished, but can hopefully make it to the range this afternoon.

My chronograph is the old school type. Radar would be easier, but this should work. Checked the manual, and it should read with 99.5% accuracy down to 30 fps. Should be good to go if I don't shoot it without having sights lol.

Gonna need to be far enough back that unburned powder doesn't affect the readings.

 

[Smokerr]

Your Chrono may well work better for your test.

Radar needs a trigger and getting enough boom or recoil for that as well as location as you are going to have a lot of stuff flying out that could give false readings or no readings.

Now to come up with a test of just a cylinder sitting on a hard surface and then a horizontal test. Back in the day we triggered a home built bomb (hand torch propane cylinder filled with old gun powder and M88 powder recovered that had got soaked which is another story).

Used a thin wire in the propane cylinder as an igniter plugged into 110 outlet. We were the talk of the Valley (New Years). We also shut up all the gun shooting, nothing was going to compete with that boom! Yes we were closely supervised by my step dad who had blasting experience. Yes it was far from the house with multiple safety protocols for the cord in place.

 

[Trev]

Texas rangers under Hayes, Harney's troops at Fort Leavenworth, others; https://www.capandballrevolvers.com...of-multiple-cylinders-in-percussion-revolvers
It would be interesting to find out if those Dragoons that Harney had with two spare cylinders each were itemized that way in the procurement papers or just listed as Dragoon revolvers.
An original looking belt rig with cylinder box, with a story about a Col. Bass ; https://www.go2gbo.com/threads/were-extra-revolver-cylinders-carried.262359/

These would probably not have been used in the heat of a close engagement, accounts of emptying two revolvers and then having to cut their way out of the melee with saber don't say whether the reloading before reengaging was done by cylinder swap or by a loading press on a table.

I don't have enough spare cylinders for testing, but as I sat on a bluff overlooking a small valley yesterday hoping for a target to walk in front of the .50 cal.; I thought what a perfect place to toss 50 or 100 loaded and capped cylinders 30' or more into fairly rocky ground, and see if any caps burst. my guess is they would not.

 

[Trev]

Yes. It needs chamber/barrel space to build up pressures and burn the powder. If there’s not enough space it just cannot get up to speed.

That's what I thought, but presuming that troops didn't have felt wads nor extra cornmeal, to fill the chamber full, a flush load would mean a larger charge than if the ball was loaded 1/2" deep, and I wondered if given the rapid combustion of BP if the larger charge might offset the short travel distance. The things I've never thought about before list keeps growing.

 

[nick_1]

that's an awesome looking gunbelt. there's no mention of extra cylinders to go with it or what that box is? could be a paper cartridge holder.?

 

[KingOfKindling]

Well, I was unsuccessful in getting a read on the chronograph, kept spitting out errors. Perhaps the light wasn't good enough. I'll have to try on another day.

Did learn a bit more however. Full power loads still kick, so I decided to shoot a 2x4 while hiding behind a tree. Fired 3 shots, all 30 grains FFFg Swiss with the Johnson and Dow conical just barely below the chamber mouth.

1st shot just grazed it. 2nd embedded itself next to the graze, and the 3 split the thing in half.

Now this is an old 2x4, but I'd still say that's gonna do some damage to a person. Blood would be spilled for sure. It is funny how quickly they start tumbling, so damage would probably quickly drop off with range.

Apparently if you need to do a combat reload you can cut the time of the swap in half. Reattaching the barrel is unneeded.

If I can get an FPS reading, I think figuring out velocity changes with a free moving cylinder is just a bit of math.

 

[Smokerr]

Cool.

Fully contained and a bit of a barrel in the version of the chamber, I would expect a kick.

I did not think it would penetrate wood like that.

I am not a math expert, ergo, not a clue how to calculate it.

You may have to much stuff flying over the Chrono it won't read. Impulse trigger on a Radar type should .

 

[nick_1]

numbers don't really matter. You don't want to get shot with that thing. still dont think its much of a worry if you pay attention and don't drop the cylinder. Remember these are single action pistols with no transfer bar. they are not all that safe to play with for starters. dropping loaded cylinders is just as much of a no no as dropping the actual revolver. you can do it, you can get away with it, but there's a chance it's going to bite you. Luck of the draw. Pun intended.

 

[Trev]

that's an awesome looking gunbelt. there's no mention of extra cylinders to go with it or what that box is? could be a paper cartridge holder.?

next post down from the pictures "The really best part of all is the Rig with it's Texas buckle. It consists of a '51 navy form fitting holster, a box to carry 2 spare cylinders, cartridge box and Bowie Knife. "
one of the images shows a cylinder in the box, whether they were with it when found is a question, but the other box was fitted for cartridges.
Not mine just something I came across when looking for a cylinder pouch/box ideas for my own use.

As to safety, I carry the revolver with a fully loaded and capped cylinder and don't perceive any greater danger in carrying a spare, if the cylinder is covered by a box/pouch lid. I can drop the frame just as easily as I could drop the cylinder. I think a charged cylinder uncapped would bother me a lot more.

 

[GreyGus]

Texas rangers under Hayes, Harney's troops at Fort Leavenworth, others; https://www.capandballrevolvers.com...of-multiple-cylinders-in-percussion-revolvers
It would be interesting to find out if those Dragoons that Harney had with two spare cylinders each were itemized that way in the procurement papers or just listed as Dragoon revolvers.
An original looking belt rig with cylinder box, with a story about a Col. Bass ; https://www.go2gbo.com/threads/were-extra-revolver-cylinders-carried.262359/

These would probably not have been used in the heat of a close engagement, accounts of emptying two revolvers and then having to cut their way out of the melee with saber don't say whether the reloading before reengaging was done by cylinder swap or by a loading press on a table.

I don't have enough spare cylinders for testing, but as I sat on a bluff overlooking a small valley yesterday hoping for a target to walk in front of the .50 cal.; I thought what a perfect place to toss 50 or 100 loaded and capped cylinders 30' or more into fairly rocky ground, and see if any caps burst. my guess is they would not.

Very nice belt rig. With the pistol being present, the knife still in its sheath, it seems unusual that neither of the “extra” cylinders are there. I wonder if the pouch was intended for something else, perhaps prepackaged cartridges?

 

[Trev]

It says there is also a cartridge box, and there appears to be two boxes on the belt. As far as I personally know they could both have for carrying extra socks, but with them knowing the whole story about when the guy enlisted and where he served, perhaps they also know what he used the belt for, IDK.

 

[oldschoolhunter55]

There was a site that had these guys testing things, one of which was how dangerous a chainfire would be. Lit off a chamber off to the side over a chronograph and 30 grns of 3F Goex and a ball only had 7 ft/lbs of energy and the conclusion was that it likely wouldn’t break the skin.

it would scare me!!!plus I would have to take a shower

 

[AlexB]

Well, I was unsuccessful in getting a read on the chronograph, kept spitting out errors. Perhaps the light wasn't good enough. I'll have to try on another day.

Did learn a bit more however. Full power loads still kick, so I decided to shoot a 2x4 while hiding behind a tree. Fired 3 shots, all 30 grains FFFg Swiss with the Johnson and Dow conical just barely below the chamber mouth.

1st shot just grazed it. 2nd embedded itself next to the graze, and the 3 split the thing in half.

Now this is an old 2x4, but I'd still say that's gonna do some damage to a person. Blood would be spilled for sure. It is funny how quickly they start tumbling, so damage would probably quickly drop off with range.

Apparently if you need to do a combat reload you can cut the time of the swap in half. Reattaching the barrel is unneeded.

If I can get an FPS reading, I think figuring out velocity changes with a free moving cylinder is just a bit of math.


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Ouch...........that's gonna put a stutter in your step my guess.
I am still gonna keep carrying a spare on my belt in a triple k pouch until a years up and see if it still shoots ok.