I have to rethink the spare cylinder idea

[WalnutRed]

Holy Thread Drift Batman!!

 

[KingOfKindling]

To get things back on topic, I got an original Remington New Model Army to play with. It's pictured with a Uberti Cylinder in it. I tried 4 different Uberti cylinders in the gun, most modern, with 1 from the 80's. They all functioned great, just like the original cylinder. Even tried an unmentionable cylinder, which also just worked. Don't plan on shooting the gun with any of these other cylinders, but I don't see any big reason why it wouldn't work. Dimensions between the original and Uberti are very close.

Only way to prove things more definitively would be to find some additional original cylinders to test in the gun. And no, holding only .01" tolerances would have been just as sloppy back then as it is now. Most of the parts on the gun need to hold things closer than that to function.

 

[sethwyo]

 

[stephenprops1]

I would guess that a few men, probably mostly officers, bought an extra cylinder out of their own pocket. It would be a little insurance to give them a slight edge in battle.

 

[Trev]

I'd bet that we will never know. The use of them is beyond a doubt possible, even probable, according to Kieth factual, but the question of common it was will never be answered until we have perfected time travel. It certainly isn't as hard to swap a loaded and capped cylinder as some videos suggest it is. Practice and familiarity with the piece would make a reflex action governed by muscle memory. You would need both hands free for 10-30 seconds, so any swap would be after the initial engagement and resulting sword fight.

 

[Smokerr]

Or after you pull and use your 2nd, 3rd and 4th gun!

I did two speed loaders (all we were allowed) on a Practical Police Course (decently done for the year I did it).

You used those on the tight time sections. The rest you had to reload one at a time. Only because they outlined the course and times involved could I plan on what to use when. And that was with Swing out cylinder and fast eject.

Again, why train to do something you can still fumble in a combat situation when you can carry as many pistols as your heart desires? If your next gun malfunctions, throw it at them and grab the 3rd one.

There is a vast difference between training and doing something while you are being shot at (fortunately I have not had to deal with being shot at).

I do know that I got into a spin in an aircraft for which I had no training. After the panic, calm returned and I had read for years how to deal with a spin. So I very calmly tried to put my foot through the floorboard of the aircraft via actuating the right rudder pedal.

Hmm, ok, my mind is calm but my body is NOT!

 

[Trev]

Sure you could have a saddle bag full of spare guns but the rule was to use the saber wasn't it?

 

[Smokerr]

For Calvary and Civil war the link posted by sethwhyo nails it.

Possible cylinder swaps from the Remington NMA era on is the more open question.

Clearly you are not going to swap while being shot at. Well, I guess you could drop to the ground and try.

Now if you anticipated a situation where you were in a fight, cary multiple guns and cylinder swap is possible under cover.

That said, you can also reload with a rammer system. With the Paper cartridges of the era that would be pretty quick. Not quite as fast as a under cover cylinder swap.

but then you come to the Cap situation. Do you Cap your spare cylinder? Ok, is the cap even still there when you go to use it?

Obviously some would buy and carry spare cylinders, but it was the unusual not the common.

​

 

[Smokerr]

Sure you could have a saddle bag full of spare guns but the rule was to use the saber wasn't it?

Me? I would shoot someone with a pistol if I had it first. But even with two 47 Walker horse pistols, you will run out in any extended encounter. Reload for that era as well as cylinder swap would not be feasible.

So a sword would be a main weapon as horse charges did result in a swirling close combat situation.

But up until the era of Top Strap coming in, an Open top cylinder replacement, maybe not impossible but danged close to it.

 

[Trev]

Do you Cap your spare cylinder?

I believe that Kieth said his sources did, one of whom was a Confederate soldier and the other Union.
In discussing the men on the Southern side he states that "Many Confederate cavalrymen carried as many as sixguns as they could lay their hands on, often as many as four..." and "They often carried extra loaded and capped cylinders in a pouch on the gun belt as well as in their pockets for a quick change when one cylinder ran dry in combat."

If they aren't capped they are just like carrying rocks, imo.

 

[TNGhost]

Or after you pull and use your 2nd, 3rd and 4th gun!

I did two speed loaders (all we were allowed) on a Practical Police Course (decently done for the year I did it).

You used those on the tight time sections. The rest you had to reload one at a time. Only because they outlined the course and times involved could I plan on what to use when. And that was with Swing out cylinder and fast eject.

Again, why train to do something you can still fumble in a combat situation when you can carry as many pistols as your heart desires? If your next gun malfunctions, throw it at them and grab the 3rd one.

There is a vast difference between training and doing something while you are being shot at (fortunately I have not had to deal with being shot at).

I do know that I got into a spin in an aircraft for which I had no training. After the panic, calm returned and I had read for years how to deal with a spin. So I very calmly tried to put my foot through the floorboard of the aircraft via actuating the right rudder pedal.

Hmm, ok, my mind is calm but my body is NOT!

What if you were infantry and not cavalry? Carrying all those pistols, your musket and all your other kit would be problematic. What if concealment was as important as firepower as in a Wells Fargo, Pinkerton or other agent? Suppose you were a private citizen in a town where no open carry was allowed (it happened). Civil War cavalry troopers were not the only ones carrying pistols, and C&B revolvers were around before and after the war.

I posted an article with an interview segment from a Pony Express rider some pages back here. He stated he carried two pistols with extra cylinders for each, in case of trouble.

 

[TNGhost]

Me? I would shoot someone with a pistol if I had it first. But even with two 47 Walker horse pistols, you will run out in any extended encounter. Reload for that era as well as cylinder swap would not be feasible.

So a sword would be a main weapon as horse charges did result in a swirling close combat situation.

But up until the era of Top Strap coming in, an Open top cylinder replacement, maybe not impossible but danged close to it.

The Patterson was an open top, with no loading lever and issued with spare cylinders for the purpose of having a reload.

Also the doctrine for cavalry was to use the pistol to close to saber range.

 

[Trev]

Open top cylinder replacement, maybe not impossible but danged close to it.

I don't have one to play with but it seems like tucking the barrel up under an arm while swapping cylinders would be pretty effective, Elmer Kieth sure thought it was done.

 

[Smokerr]

I don't have one to play with but it seems like tucking the barrel up under an arm while swapping cylinders would be pretty effective, Elmer Kieth sure thought it was done.

I do and its like when I got to shoot an AK47 Semi auto. Very interesting. That gun was not my cup of tea (not a coffee drinker!) but it was getting an understanding of the platform.

So, for an open top, you have to knock the wedge loose (not out). Its supposed to be tight seated otherwise accuracy is even worse than they tended to be.

At that point the barrel assembly may or may not pop off, depends on how tight the frame pins and arbor are (its now fouled as you have shot it).

So you tuck it under your arm, where do you put the rear frame? Ok, back in the holster. Get your spare cylinder, put it on, get the barrel assembly back on and oh, you need to knock that wedge back tight.

Does anyone think the average cavalry guy could do that? Even the non average guy? Possible yes, close to impossible also yes/.

 

[Smokerr]

What if you were infantry and not cavalry? Carrying all those pistols, your musket and all your other kit would be problematic.

Infantry was not issues a pistol. NCO probably, but not the line guys.

How often they had their own guns? Probably some but not common. So you did not have to worry about pistols.

The guys who carried multiples were the various law officers and if the quote is right, confederates tended to. Not sure where they got them though capture early on likely.

 

[Trev]

One hand for the frame and one for the cylinders?

 

[Smokerr]

I posted an article with an interview segment from a Pony Express rider some pages back here. He stated he carried two pistols with extra cylinders for each, in case of trouble.

You did. And you can see that being a case where weight of pistols vs a need for more rounds becomes a trade off.

If he carried a Remington type, then its possible to swap cylinders. I guess you could throw the used one at your adversary!

But on foot its not easy, on a horse, ungh. Trying to turn the cylinder into the frame, get the pin to secure it is fiddly, even at the bench.

 

[KingOfKindling]

You did. And you can see that being a case where weight of pistols vs a need for more rounds becomes a trade off.

If he carried a Remington type, then its possible to swap cylinders. I guess you could throw the used one at your adversary!

But on foot its not easy, on a horse, ungh. Trying to turn the cylinder into the frame, get the pin to secure it is fiddly, even at the bench.

I think you're greatly exaggerating the difficulty. It's easy on foot, and even easier at the bench. I already posted a video where it took me under 11 seconds to swap a Remington cylinder, without trying to go quickly. It's no different on my original than on the reproduction in the video.

Do I think the average cavalryman could swap a cylinder on a horse? Yes, without much difficulty at all. These guys spent a ton of time in the saddle, it would take them very little practice.

I probably shouldn't try it, but I don't think it'd be that hard to swap while driving. Guess I could simulate a horse by driving offroad or something.