Trev
36 Cl.
So all those CW vets and old gunfighters that Kieth interviewed and trained with just flat out lied to him?
I have to rethink the spare cylinder idea
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KingOfKindling
40 Cal
Go check out the very first post that started this entire thread.
Malamute
40 Cal
Throwing a few random thoughts out.
"Average______" keeps being thrown out in discussion, Id suggest that the people that may have used spare cylinders were likely not "average". My personal context is not so much CW but western frontier type. In the post CW period there were scads of used CW percussion pistols on the market and in heavy use, often at pretty reasonable prices. Damaged guns may well have been scavenged for usable parts, the single most potentially usable part is the cylinder.
We of course have precedence in spare cylinders being used in the Patterson model, the question remains if spares were used much if at all by later users. The answer seems largely no, but not conclusively "never". Its quite possible it was done to some degree but not commented about by any written account thats currently known, as many people then didnt write much or survive long enough to write about it, or as some mentioned, it may not have seemed important enough to mention.
Remingtons are mentioned quite a lot. the info Ive seen on them in western cavalry use is they had problems with them bursting cylinders, to the point some officers had them turned in and they went without, as many troops didnt trust them after seeing several burst. To assume a Remington solved any perceived shortcomings of Colts pistols in that period seems to not take this into account. The Remingtons were also known to foul faster, rendering the gun difficult to use sooner. Using a repo today and assuming it accurately represents those used in the mid-late 1800s is not always a valid assumption, in either Remingtons or Colts in some aspect or another.
If stuck using a percussion revolver, Id probably want a spare cylinder. Extra guns are heavier and cost more. One spare gun may be practical to carry, and one or others on a saddle be do-able to some, but horses can only carry so much weight over time and distance, choose wisely what you can afford and take. Guns and firepower are only one aspect of life on the frontier.
I dont recall who, but they mentioned in writing of knocking the wedge loose on a saddle horn. Military saddles didnt have a horn but did have a hard front tree.
They had very different ideas about safety than today. Carrying a loaded capped cylinder likely didnt cause any particular alarm, it doesnt to me, Id carry one if relying on a percussion gun for some reason and reloading or carrying the stuff required was difficult or problematic, but being careful with one would seem prudent. Loading directly from a flask was also common, besides paper cartridges. Cappers made capping easier, I believe there were appropriate cappers for revolvers.
Average users, both in and out of military service likely didnt think through some of this much, nor practice much, some, for whatever reasons, did shoot more and attempt to up their game so to speak, theres always been that divide. Its tough to make sweeping conclusions based on "average" user assumptions.
Dunning-Kruger effect. One side is fairly well known, incompetent people assume they are competent, but dont know enough to understand their incompetence. The other side of that coin is higher competence individuals assume everyone can do what they can. An unknown Jerry Miculek/Ed McGivern etc may believe its not difficult to do the things they can, and cant understand why others cant. Not everyone is wired the same. Some choke or get nervy in tense situations, some dont*. Its difficult to say I do/dont do such and such so that means most people can/cant do or be like me. Cant swap a cylinder when riding or being shot at? Some likely can without particular difficulty. Same for reloading or whatever. Practice and experience play a part, as does the individuals temperament and physical abilities.
*An example of someone not getting ruffled, in a video shot during the second battle of Najaf, Travis Haley is engaging enemy at 7-800 yds with a precision rifle, calmly going through multiple magazines, his spotter mentioned they were shooting back, he acknowledged such "Yeah, theyre shootin back at us", apparently not at all concerned. Taking care of business.
"Average______" keeps being thrown out in discussion, Id suggest that the people that may have used spare cylinders were likely not "average". My personal context is not so much CW but western frontier type. In the post CW period there were scads of used CW percussion pistols on the market and in heavy use, often at pretty reasonable prices. Damaged guns may well have been scavenged for usable parts, the single most potentially usable part is the cylinder.
We of course have precedence in spare cylinders being used in the Patterson model, the question remains if spares were used much if at all by later users. The answer seems largely no, but not conclusively "never". Its quite possible it was done to some degree but not commented about by any written account thats currently known, as many people then didnt write much or survive long enough to write about it, or as some mentioned, it may not have seemed important enough to mention.
Remingtons are mentioned quite a lot. the info Ive seen on them in western cavalry use is they had problems with them bursting cylinders, to the point some officers had them turned in and they went without, as many troops didnt trust them after seeing several burst. To assume a Remington solved any perceived shortcomings of Colts pistols in that period seems to not take this into account. The Remingtons were also known to foul faster, rendering the gun difficult to use sooner. Using a repo today and assuming it accurately represents those used in the mid-late 1800s is not always a valid assumption, in either Remingtons or Colts in some aspect or another.
If stuck using a percussion revolver, Id probably want a spare cylinder. Extra guns are heavier and cost more. One spare gun may be practical to carry, and one or others on a saddle be do-able to some, but horses can only carry so much weight over time and distance, choose wisely what you can afford and take. Guns and firepower are only one aspect of life on the frontier.
I dont recall who, but they mentioned in writing of knocking the wedge loose on a saddle horn. Military saddles didnt have a horn but did have a hard front tree.
They had very different ideas about safety than today. Carrying a loaded capped cylinder likely didnt cause any particular alarm, it doesnt to me, Id carry one if relying on a percussion gun for some reason and reloading or carrying the stuff required was difficult or problematic, but being careful with one would seem prudent. Loading directly from a flask was also common, besides paper cartridges. Cappers made capping easier, I believe there were appropriate cappers for revolvers.
Average users, both in and out of military service likely didnt think through some of this much, nor practice much, some, for whatever reasons, did shoot more and attempt to up their game so to speak, theres always been that divide. Its tough to make sweeping conclusions based on "average" user assumptions.
Dunning-Kruger effect. One side is fairly well known, incompetent people assume they are competent, but dont know enough to understand their incompetence. The other side of that coin is higher competence individuals assume everyone can do what they can. An unknown Jerry Miculek/Ed McGivern etc may believe its not difficult to do the things they can, and cant understand why others cant. Not everyone is wired the same. Some choke or get nervy in tense situations, some dont*. Its difficult to say I do/dont do such and such so that means most people can/cant do or be like me. Cant swap a cylinder when riding or being shot at? Some likely can without particular difficulty. Same for reloading or whatever. Practice and experience play a part, as does the individuals temperament and physical abilities.
*An example of someone not getting ruffled, in a video shot during the second battle of Najaf, Travis Haley is engaging enemy at 7-800 yds with a precision rifle, calmly going through multiple magazines, his spotter mentioned they were shooting back, he acknowledged such "Yeah, theyre shootin back at us", apparently not at all concerned. Taking care of business.
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KingOfKindling
40 Cal
Didn't say anything about the civil war. Whitworth wasn't strictly looking for civil war sources either. See the bolded quote below. Was just pointing out to him a source of found loose cylinders. This thread has gotten so gigantic it's almost impossible to keep up with everything.
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When asked about shooting his handgun at 400 yards, Elmer Keith would reply, ''just put the sight over the target and squeeze.'' I'd be all ''where is the target? I can't see that far!"
Malamute
40 Cal
Yes, its actually pretty simple, but its not easy.
BTW, his general method was keeping the front sight and target relationship the same and raising the front blade or bead above the rear sight, or said another way, lowering the rear sight in relation to the front. Time and practice give fairly good educated guesses on how much front sight to hold above the rear. Dry ground that shows hits allows quick corrections and speeds the learning curve greatly.
On more open ground and a somewhat contrasting target, its not as hard to see something at that distance, but one that blends in requires very good light and very good eyesight.
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Yup and guys said he would look at you as if you were an idiot if you couldn't do it.
The Patterson revolving rifle was sold with extra cylinders
Was that gun ever very popular? One guy in our club has a replica which has been troublesome and inaccurate to the point some of his rounds were landing on my target.
I don’t think it was very popular
Most troopers had a revolver at some point. The pistol makers had their hands full making just enough revolvers to go around without trying to make extra cylinders. And Colt & Remington not the only companies making them. Lots of smaller operations turning out various styles as well.
I will concede that spare cylinders were never carried in the American West, if someone can give a logical explanation on why loaded cylinders have turned u in excavations and building renovations in the American West.
Why do you think these were being carried by military personnel when lost of discarded? I suspect there were many more civilians in the American West with percussion revolvers than military personnel, especially after the ACW. If for no other reason than civilians probably outnumbered the military in the American West post ACW by 1000 to 1.
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justinoldguy
32 Cal
If not for Pale Rider, nobody would surmise that extra cylinders were a thing. As in all things, there were probably a very few outliers that did carry an extra cylinder, but it was certainly very rare at best. I have extra cylinders for my revolvers, and I never use them. If I was going into combat, and was financially able, I would carry as many Remington revolvers as I could pack. I prefer my Colt's for hobby shooting, and have many more of them than Remingtons, however Colts are nowhere as near as reliable as the Remington design. Before someone gets their dander up, I know all about slix-shot nipples, jb weld hammer face, switching out springs, polishing actions, yada, yada, yada. All that work almost makes a Colt as functional as a stock Remington. And yes, I have and shoot originals of both. Colt revolvers feel and look sexy, while as Remingtons feel like a brick, but are just as reliable as said brick.
Pony bob as far as I know is the only reference to extra cylinders in the old west other than Pale Rider. I Just finished three books that extensively covered the old west buffalo hunters, scouts, trappers pony express riders, outlaws, Indians and the army. Zero mention of extra cylinders and lots of talk of two revolvers per man, Rifles, shotguns and carbines.
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