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I think this is an army
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CaptainKirk
54 Cal.
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Yes, New Army.
Easily identifiable by the creeping loading lever.
Easily identifiable by the creeping loading lever.
Army was just a marketing name. Both Colt Navies and Armies had the naval rollstamp on the cylinder. An Army is by definition a .44 caliber revolver with a full length barrel. The easiest visual confirmation that it's a .44 caliber is the fact that it has a rebated (stepped) cylinder.
For the year, there is a two letter code (not PN, that's a blackpowder proof) for the date.
How much did it run you?
For the year, there is a two letter code (not PN, that's a blackpowder proof) for the date.
How much did it run you?
I gave $80 for it,but $25 was because my permit to buy was expired. I do not need a permit to buy on a B P. Every once in a while I e-mail the auctioneer and remind him of his mistake.It was a good deal at $80.Now I have a permit to carry in Iowa. By the way it is a 44.
CaptainKirk
54 Cal.
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In the historical sense, the Navies were all .36 cal. (Remmie, Colt and others) with the Army being a .44 cal. Many of the modern repros have 'mixed and matched' somewhat confusing the issue.
On yours, the giveaways are;
*.44 cal
*Rebated cylinder
*Creeping loading lever (also available on the '61 Navy, but in .36 cal)
Use this link for identifying make and year of mfg; http://www.powderhombre.com/mbpproofmarks.pdf
On yours, the giveaways are;
*.44 cal
*Rebated cylinder
*Creeping loading lever (also available on the '61 Navy, but in .36 cal)
Use this link for identifying make and year of mfg; http://www.powderhombre.com/mbpproofmarks.pdf
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You have a replica of a "Colt 1860 Army Revolver".
It is one of the "Four Screw" versions and the bottom of the metal grip strap should have a notch machined into the bottom at the rear of it.
The "forth screw" is the fillister head screw located on both sides of the frame above the trigger guard. Its purpose was to provide an attachment location for a removable shoulder stock which also clamps into the machined notch on the bottom of the grip.
The Model 1860 Army was the first .44 caliber gun made by Colt after the three models of Dragoon pistols.
The 3rd model Dragoon .44 was made from 1851 thru 1861.
The Model 1860 revolver was made from 1860 thru 1873. 200,500 were made with about 156,000 of them being made between 1860 and 1865.
This was the first model with the "creeping loading lever" and the stylized lower barrel lug, the earlier Colts using a link to operate the loading lever and having a much blunter more utilitarian barrel lug.
Although the grip looks much like the grip on the Colt 1861 Navy the grip and the rest of the gun is larger.
The engraving on the cylinder of the Colt 1851 Navy, the Colt 1860 Army the Colt 1861 Navy was the battle scene depicting the Texas Navy fighting the Mexican Navy.
The scenes on other Colt pistols range from a stagecoach holdup thru Dragoons fighting Indians.
These engravings were used by Colt to let his customers know they had a genuine Colt product. In fact several of his ad's tell prospective customers to look for the engraving for the proof of authenticity.
When Colt came up with the .36 caliber 1851 model it was first called an "intermediate" pistol but Colt (some say) changed the name to his "Navy" pistol. He also rather unsuccessfully tried to sell these to the Navy. They were widely bought by the civilian population and by the time the Colt 1860 Army was developed the Naval Battle scene was widely known. This possibly explains why the Naval Battle scene was used on the 1860 Army pistol.
As was mentioned, your cylinder has a step in it making what is known as a "rebated cylinder". This allowed the large .44 caliber to be used in a smaller, lighter frame without compromising the cylinders strength. Prior to this model, the .44 Walker and the three models of .44 caliber Dragoons had a straight cylindrical cylinder and a much larger frame. They were much heavier than the 1860 Army. (over 4 pounds unloaded).
The Army had been using .44 caliber Colts from before 1849 and felt the caliber was more suited for bringing down horses. Colt, understanding this chose the .44 caliber for this new Army revolver.
I'm sure you will enjoy your pistol. If you plan on shooting it it will use .451 or .453 diameter lead roundballs. Any real "black powder" or a black powder substutite like Pyrodex will work and it will need #11 percussion caps. Under NO circumstances should a modern smokeless powder of any kind be used in your pistol. Smokeless powder will blow your gun up.
The ball size suggested is larger than the chambers and a thin lead ring will shear off of the balls as they are rammed into the chambers. Many folks put a layer of grease or vegetable shortening over the top of the ball once seated to lubricate the bore.
Have fun
It is one of the "Four Screw" versions and the bottom of the metal grip strap should have a notch machined into the bottom at the rear of it.
The "forth screw" is the fillister head screw located on both sides of the frame above the trigger guard. Its purpose was to provide an attachment location for a removable shoulder stock which also clamps into the machined notch on the bottom of the grip.
The Model 1860 Army was the first .44 caliber gun made by Colt after the three models of Dragoon pistols.
The 3rd model Dragoon .44 was made from 1851 thru 1861.
The Model 1860 revolver was made from 1860 thru 1873. 200,500 were made with about 156,000 of them being made between 1860 and 1865.
This was the first model with the "creeping loading lever" and the stylized lower barrel lug, the earlier Colts using a link to operate the loading lever and having a much blunter more utilitarian barrel lug.
Although the grip looks much like the grip on the Colt 1861 Navy the grip and the rest of the gun is larger.
The engraving on the cylinder of the Colt 1851 Navy, the Colt 1860 Army the Colt 1861 Navy was the battle scene depicting the Texas Navy fighting the Mexican Navy.
The scenes on other Colt pistols range from a stagecoach holdup thru Dragoons fighting Indians.
These engravings were used by Colt to let his customers know they had a genuine Colt product. In fact several of his ad's tell prospective customers to look for the engraving for the proof of authenticity.
When Colt came up with the .36 caliber 1851 model it was first called an "intermediate" pistol but Colt (some say) changed the name to his "Navy" pistol. He also rather unsuccessfully tried to sell these to the Navy. They were widely bought by the civilian population and by the time the Colt 1860 Army was developed the Naval Battle scene was widely known. This possibly explains why the Naval Battle scene was used on the 1860 Army pistol.
As was mentioned, your cylinder has a step in it making what is known as a "rebated cylinder". This allowed the large .44 caliber to be used in a smaller, lighter frame without compromising the cylinders strength. Prior to this model, the .44 Walker and the three models of .44 caliber Dragoons had a straight cylindrical cylinder and a much larger frame. They were much heavier than the 1860 Army. (over 4 pounds unloaded).
The Army had been using .44 caliber Colts from before 1849 and felt the caliber was more suited for bringing down horses. Colt, understanding this chose the .44 caliber for this new Army revolver.
I'm sure you will enjoy your pistol. If you plan on shooting it it will use .451 or .453 diameter lead roundballs. Any real "black powder" or a black powder substutite like Pyrodex will work and it will need #11 percussion caps. Under NO circumstances should a modern smokeless powder of any kind be used in your pistol. Smokeless powder will blow your gun up.
The ball size suggested is larger than the chambers and a thin lead ring will shear off of the balls as they are rammed into the chambers. Many folks put a layer of grease or vegetable shortening over the top of the ball once seated to lubricate the bore.
Have fun
A quick look at yout gun identifies it as a Colt Model 1860 Army revolver. While it is true .44 were called "armies" and .36 were called "navies", you don't need to know the caliber to identify your gun from the picture. Armies had 8 inch barrels, navues 7 1/2. Look at your loading lever. On the Colt Model 1861 Navy revolver, the loading lever reaches almost to the muzzle. Check Flaydermans Guide for comparison pics.
With all due respect the grip is not larger per se just longer by a 1/4" and the frame is the same size as the Navy, thus the rebate to fit the slightly larger cylinder. The 1860 Army, 1861, Navy, and even the 1873 model P are all based on the 1851 Navy frame and grip frame.
I guess I should have said, "My Colt 1860 is larger than my Colt 1851."
A few measurements:
Cylinder length: 1851 = 1.735, 1860 = 1.830
Grip thickness (front to rear) measured tangent to the bottom of the trigger guard (to establish elevation) and parallel to the barrel: 1851 = 1.526, 1860 = 1.605
Grip width (side to side) measured tangent to the bottom of the trigger guard (to establish elevation): 1851 = 1.220, 1860 = 1.320.
Some of these differences may be due to the fact that the 1851 is a Fratelli Pietta while the 1860 is a 4 screw Uberti.
A few measurements:
Cylinder length: 1851 = 1.735, 1860 = 1.830
Grip thickness (front to rear) measured tangent to the bottom of the trigger guard (to establish elevation) and parallel to the barrel: 1851 = 1.526, 1860 = 1.605
Grip width (side to side) measured tangent to the bottom of the trigger guard (to establish elevation): 1851 = 1.220, 1860 = 1.320.
Some of these differences may be due to the fact that the 1851 is a Fratelli Pietta while the 1860 is a 4 screw Uberti.
Thanks for all the help.I went to a gun show and they had a pair of pietta 36 cal navy ,or at least thats what he called them.So if one is in 36 cal does that make them navy? He was asking $400 for the pair with consecutive serial numbers .
Yes, a .36 caliber with a full sized barrel is a Navy revolver.
Since these are reproductions, the sequential serial number doesn't mean much. It's like giving $5 for two $2 bills with sequential serial numbers. But with that said, $200 is as cheap as you can get one Pietta Colt Navy from Cabelas. So if those two revolvers are relatively new with zero problems, then see if you can haggle a little bit off the price and buy them.
Since these are reproductions, the sequential serial number doesn't mean much. It's like giving $5 for two $2 bills with sequential serial numbers. But with that said, $200 is as cheap as you can get one Pietta Colt Navy from Cabelas. So if those two revolvers are relatively new with zero problems, then see if you can haggle a little bit off the price and buy them.
When Colt introduced his 1851 Navy .36 caliber pistol no one else could market a revolver because of his Patents.
His "Navy" pistol became widely known and it was very popular with the general public.
So popular, that after his Patents ran out and other companies started marketing their own versions of revolvers they too used the term "Navy" to describe their .36 caliber guns.
Slightly off topic, there currently are Colt 1851 style revolvers made in Italy that are .44 caliber.
These pistols have the rebated cylinder like the 1860 Army and a relieved area on their frames to accommodate the larger area of the cylinder but no known revolver was ever made by Colt with this design. It appears to be an Italian creation to market a .44 caliber cap and ball gun to the public. They are/were made in both steel and brass framed versions.
I'm not bad mouthing these .44 caliber pistols because they are great fun to shoot with the look and feel of a Colt .36 Navy and the BOOM of a .44.
While these pistols are great fun, for the serious reenactor they are not historically correct so, anyone considering recreating a Civil War persona is advised to stay with the .36 caliber if they want to carry a "1851 Colt Navy".
His "Navy" pistol became widely known and it was very popular with the general public.
So popular, that after his Patents ran out and other companies started marketing their own versions of revolvers they too used the term "Navy" to describe their .36 caliber guns.
Slightly off topic, there currently are Colt 1851 style revolvers made in Italy that are .44 caliber.
These pistols have the rebated cylinder like the 1860 Army and a relieved area on their frames to accommodate the larger area of the cylinder but no known revolver was ever made by Colt with this design. It appears to be an Italian creation to market a .44 caliber cap and ball gun to the public. They are/were made in both steel and brass framed versions.
I'm not bad mouthing these .44 caliber pistols because they are great fun to shoot with the look and feel of a Colt .36 Navy and the BOOM of a .44.
While these pistols are great fun, for the serious reenactor they are not historically correct so, anyone considering recreating a Civil War persona is advised to stay with the .36 caliber if they want to carry a "1851 Colt Navy".
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