I think the main glich is not excluding modern bullets, which if allowed does not make it a Traditional ML season.They are hung uo on the "type" of gun which is not the isssue between modern and traditional seasons it must also adress the type of sights and projectiles.....which cannot be of modern design to be considered traditional.
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Idaho DFG / Traditional ML
- Thread starter wtilenw
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Acually they do. Idaho currently has two types of muzzleloader seasons. The weapons that can be used is spelled quite clear. During what is called a muzzleloader season restrictions of what is a muzzleloader then if you hunt during the traditional season there are added restrictions. Now fish and game is thinking about making any muzzleloader hunt strictly traditional. :hatsoff: For those that want to hunt with an inline they would have to hunt during general season. :thumbsup:
Muzzleloader-Only Season
Any person hunting in a muzzleloader-only season, including controlled hunts and traditional hunts, must have in possession their license with muzzleloader permit validation.
During a muzzleloader-only season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other than a muzzleloading rifle or musket.
In addition, the muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
Ӣ Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
Ӣ Equipped with only open or peep sights.
Ӣ Loaded only with black powder, Pyrodex, or synthetic black powder.
Ӣ Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
Ӣ Loaded with a projectile of at least .428 caliber.
Ӣ Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap. 209 primers are unlawful.
Traditional Muzzleloader Season
During a traditional muzzleloader-only season, in addition to restrictions noted above under muzzleloader and muzzleloader-only, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with any firearm other than a muzzleloading rifle or musket with an exposed hammer that pivots, and:
Ӣ Is loaded only with loose black powder, Pyrodex, or synthetic black powder.
Ӣ Is loaded only with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy. Sabots are not allowed.
Muzzleloader-Only Season
Any person hunting in a muzzleloader-only season, including controlled hunts and traditional hunts, must have in possession their license with muzzleloader permit validation.
During a muzzleloader-only season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other than a muzzleloading rifle or musket.
In addition, the muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
Ӣ Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
Ӣ Equipped with only open or peep sights.
Ӣ Loaded only with black powder, Pyrodex, or synthetic black powder.
Ӣ Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
Ӣ Loaded with a projectile of at least .428 caliber.
Ӣ Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap. 209 primers are unlawful.
Traditional Muzzleloader Season
During a traditional muzzleloader-only season, in addition to restrictions noted above under muzzleloader and muzzleloader-only, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with any firearm other than a muzzleloading rifle or musket with an exposed hammer that pivots, and:
Ӣ Is loaded only with loose black powder, Pyrodex, or synthetic black powder.
Ӣ Is loaded only with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy. Sabots are not allowed.
Actually they don't if they do not specify the projectiles and sights are not to be of modern style or design... very few of the peeps or adjustable open sights or solid lead conicals offered and used today are non-modern in design therfore thay are not truely traditionaland should not be considered for a traditional seasonI suggest that if one is going to toss around the term traditional not to dilute it with so much modern technology or the point and challenge is lost, as when useing a traditional type sidelock and shooting with modern adjustable hightech peeps and maxi balls or some other period 1970+ design conical.
Runner is right! having first hand experience in passing legislation; you have to start somewhere. At least you have "a foot in the door", you can build on that.Runner said:
I hope to see a Traditional season here in Maine someday. ML season here for most is just a last chance to get a tag filled after rifle season.
Not complaining, just clarifying terms, and there is little traditional about a season that allows modern sights and bullets, if this delutes concept of traditional ML hunting floats your boat then that is fine, but it really does very little in the way of segregating the modern from the old and this is an important issue as the modern ML's technology advances closer to centerfire capability.I am certain that most of the sqwak aimed at this view is from those who have resigned them selves to the low bar setting that has become so widespread, but it might not hurt to strive for a higher standard if indeed one really is interested in having a true traditional ML hunt, and I do suspect that those who are leaning in that direction are probably in the minority, but that does not alter the facts about the components in question and what is a mistake to include them in a traditional hunt, and once again this is not about what is better or more impressive or PC chest thumping, just the simple facts about what is or isn't traditional gear.If the current proposals are implimented it is doubtfull that it will ever get MORE traditional in the future far to many are content with half measures.
What part is wrong? They fully protected roundball in calibers appropriate for their state hunting situation. They limited madern bullets to pure lead and 1.5 times bore diameter. That is as pure a traditional decision as there will ever be. They even eliminated the inappropriate actions, no matter what sights they use. If you wanted flintlock and roundball only, grow up already!
The sights amd projectiles should be of a type used in the past not just kinda sorta like them in a wide descripytive tone, if you follow this line of though then the ** line guns are traditional because that concept was around in the 18th century if you want to go by a very low standard and squeeze non traditional equipment in because of a very slim and vague resemblance to something from the past that is fine, but some prefer to use facts and not fancy to set the bar
and such a low standard taken as fact does not do any favors to newcommers trying to learn about traditional gear, a maxi ball is not a traditional projectile neither is a bal-let they have an advantage over the RB and and period type bullets same with modern peeps that is the point, if you cannot see the forest for the trees that is fine use whatever you choose and call it whatever you want but the facts will remain unchanged. for a traditional hunt the sights need to be of a style common to the period, and so should the projectiles not ones that are a result of 200 yeasr of R&D. Such regs. are not asking much they are just asking for a season that allows gear like what was used in the 1840's or earlier but many simply cannot or will not give up the modern niceties and advantages persieved or real that modern sights and bullets provide and to mask this try to make them traditional by comparison useing generalites of descriptive qualities rather than historic facts and performance data, I think it is a waste of time to contiune this as there is little hope of convincing anyone who says they really think a Maxi ball or a hight tech micro click peep is a traditional piece of gear, such an individual is either very uninformed or dishonest, Take the venerablr TC Hawkin, put a front blade, fixed primitive rear and feed it PRB and you have a traditional outfit, take an original Harpers Ferry put on a modern sight and shove down a modern design conical fit the barrel with a fast twist so you can concievably double the range of the original setup and you don't, it is as simple as night and day, you can pussy foot around it till the cows come home and it is what it is, nothing wrong with such a set up but let's call a spade a spade and not toss around the traditional term so loosly that it gets lost in the shuffle, I know this upsets those who don't like traditional gear but love to say the word, that is unfortunate but none of us are always traditional it is just harder for some to admit it probably to themselves I guess, I have neber reall figured out why some folks have to stretch and tug and twist reality just to say they are traditional or PC I have and use both types of Ml gear and have no problem telling the difference twixt the two and use either without hanging my head or sticking my nose in the air, but I do try very hard not to represnt one as the other, someone who really cares about the truth may be reading and they deserve honesty not wishfull thinking, I hope the states that have adapted stricter regs leaning toward the ttraditional side do well and those hunters in those states are happy with the changes but I think we are a long ways from having many truly tradtional seasons because we have been fed Maxis, R.E.A.L's fancy peeps and many other modern niceties for many years and bad habits are hard to break.The bar is set very low it is just a matter of whether it is to low for you or not as to supporting the content of the regs, and I suppose there may be those who are unable to take a deer with primitive sights and a PRB or sufficient size but I would question whether they should be in the woods or not as they obviously do not have a very good understanding of the basics of ML hunting.
and such a low standard taken as fact does not do any favors to newcommers trying to learn about traditional gear, a maxi ball is not a traditional projectile neither is a bal-let they have an advantage over the RB and and period type bullets same with modern peeps that is the point, if you cannot see the forest for the trees that is fine use whatever you choose and call it whatever you want but the facts will remain unchanged. for a traditional hunt the sights need to be of a style common to the period, and so should the projectiles not ones that are a result of 200 yeasr of R&D. Such regs. are not asking much they are just asking for a season that allows gear like what was used in the 1840's or earlier but many simply cannot or will not give up the modern niceties and advantages persieved or real that modern sights and bullets provide and to mask this try to make them traditional by comparison useing generalites of descriptive qualities rather than historic facts and performance data, I think it is a waste of time to contiune this as there is little hope of convincing anyone who says they really think a Maxi ball or a hight tech micro click peep is a traditional piece of gear, such an individual is either very uninformed or dishonest, Take the venerablr TC Hawkin, put a front blade, fixed primitive rear and feed it PRB and you have a traditional outfit, take an original Harpers Ferry put on a modern sight and shove down a modern design conical fit the barrel with a fast twist so you can concievably double the range of the original setup and you don't, it is as simple as night and day, you can pussy foot around it till the cows come home and it is what it is, nothing wrong with such a set up but let's call a spade a spade and not toss around the traditional term so loosly that it gets lost in the shuffle, I know this upsets those who don't like traditional gear but love to say the word, that is unfortunate but none of us are always traditional it is just harder for some to admit it probably to themselves I guess, I have neber reall figured out why some folks have to stretch and tug and twist reality just to say they are traditional or PC I have and use both types of Ml gear and have no problem telling the difference twixt the two and use either without hanging my head or sticking my nose in the air, but I do try very hard not to represnt one as the other, someone who really cares about the truth may be reading and they deserve honesty not wishfull thinking, I hope the states that have adapted stricter regs leaning toward the ttraditional side do well and those hunters in those states are happy with the changes but I think we are a long ways from having many truly tradtional seasons because we have been fed Maxis, R.E.A.L's fancy peeps and many other modern niceties for many years and bad habits are hard to break.The bar is set very low it is just a matter of whether it is to low for you or not as to supporting the content of the regs, and I suppose there may be those who are unable to take a deer with primitive sights and a PRB or sufficient size but I would question whether they should be in the woods or not as they obviously do not have a very good understanding of the basics of ML hunting.
What part of 1.5 times bore did you not understand? That means roundball or ball-et. No Maxi-ball is anywhere near that short. The regulation is actually too strict in that it no longer allows a guy with one rifle to hunt everything by going to a bigger bullet in his 50 or 54. Now you either shoot the larger bore or only hunt certain species. It should have been 2x bore and should have started at 45 calier. If that is all they missed on, we should all be excited. I am not sure if fiber optic sights are allowed or not. I can easily live with 1.5 times bore, black or black sub, open sights, and a pivoting hammer with exposed ignition source any day of the week.
"What part of 1.5 times bore did you not understand? That means roundball or ball-et. No Maxi-ball is anywhere near that short"
what part of modern bullets are not traditional gear do YOU not understand? ball-ets are not traditional projectiles, and a truely traditional season useing real traditiona; gear should and will by nature be seletctive and restrictive and cause one to make spewcific choices in the type of gun and equipment which is used that is the whole point of having a special season, let it rest you are not and probably will not be on the traditional page so to speak, which is fine it is not for everyone.
what part of modern bullets are not traditional gear do YOU not understand? ball-ets are not traditional projectiles, and a truely traditional season useing real traditiona; gear should and will by nature be seletctive and restrictive and cause one to make spewcific choices in the type of gun and equipment which is used that is the whole point of having a special season, let it rest you are not and probably will not be on the traditional page so to speak, which is fine it is not for everyone.
It looks like the Idaho regs take away the biggest modernizations to inlines like sabots, 209 primers, and compressed pellets. It's definately more traditional than an anything-goes-as-long-as-loads-from-the-front type season, even if it doesn't fit a super narrow definition of "traditional" (ie, flintlock only with PRB and fixed iron sights).
I agree with Runner. It is a victory, and some people do need to stop whining.
I agree with Runner. It is a victory, and some people do need to stop whining.
Again, your definition of traditional has to be tied to a date. The firearms law exemption is tied to a pre-1900 time frame. If you shoot caplocks, you are tied to a 1820 to whenever time frame. 1840 being more realistic for caps and guns to be in the hands of the general population. If you want flint only, then you go 1820 and back. That gets rid of the underhammers, the caplocks, the longer bullets, and a whole host of other issues.
If you are looking at traditional being before 1820 only, good luck! I think I said it best with the grow up comment.
Depending on the date used, a guy with an underhammer shooting an early style conical is completely traditonal by 1850.
Just what date are you using as the traditional cut off? I agree that the dream would be flinters and roundball only. Of course that is just a dream. It ignores almost 100 years of those guns being used as primary tools. It ignores the ever increasing regulations and hassles to get black powder that are going to get even worse soon. It ignores the states need to control their game populations. It ignores most of reality, like many childrens fantasies. That is why I made the comment I did.
Because you challenge yourself to use gear from before a certain date does not give you the right or even the high ground when telling others what they should or should not do.
I love flinters, and I mostly hunt with roundball. I don't own a modern firearm of any kind unless you count my airguns. Does the make me traditional? No!
I have sidelined all flinter projects because of the black powder problem. I will not order large packages of black to store here. I have cats, dogs, children, and grandchildren into only God knows what here all the time. If you think that storing black and Pyrodex are the same, you need to talk to some fire fighters or other witnesses to what happens when the black goes off. You might start with the folks at Dunn's. Several of the folks that will answer you there have scars from when the fire got to the real black. When I could keep a pound or so at a time I did not mind. I am not keeping 25 pounds here! That pretty much leaves me at caplocks right there, and that puts me square into conicals, underhammers, and all that stuff. Isn't reality and history annoying?
So, lets make this easy for everybody. What cut off date are you using for your definition of traditional?
If you are looking at traditional being before 1820 only, good luck! I think I said it best with the grow up comment.
Depending on the date used, a guy with an underhammer shooting an early style conical is completely traditonal by 1850.
Just what date are you using as the traditional cut off? I agree that the dream would be flinters and roundball only. Of course that is just a dream. It ignores almost 100 years of those guns being used as primary tools. It ignores the ever increasing regulations and hassles to get black powder that are going to get even worse soon. It ignores the states need to control their game populations. It ignores most of reality, like many childrens fantasies. That is why I made the comment I did.
Because you challenge yourself to use gear from before a certain date does not give you the right or even the high ground when telling others what they should or should not do.
I love flinters, and I mostly hunt with roundball. I don't own a modern firearm of any kind unless you count my airguns. Does the make me traditional? No!
I have sidelined all flinter projects because of the black powder problem. I will not order large packages of black to store here. I have cats, dogs, children, and grandchildren into only God knows what here all the time. If you think that storing black and Pyrodex are the same, you need to talk to some fire fighters or other witnesses to what happens when the black goes off. You might start with the folks at Dunn's. Several of the folks that will answer you there have scars from when the fire got to the real black. When I could keep a pound or so at a time I did not mind. I am not keeping 25 pounds here! That pretty much leaves me at caplocks right there, and that puts me square into conicals, underhammers, and all that stuff. Isn't reality and history annoying?
So, lets make this easy for everybody. What cut off date are you using for your definition of traditional?
"Isn't reality and history annoying? "
no more than you are... I would say any conical that is of a type documentable to the period of the gun used would be fine, the modern design ones would be out, it is pretty simple to be traditional if one wants to but most don't which is fine it would just be nice if folks would not try to classify modern stuff as being traditional
why would anyone have a problem useing a traditional projectile and primitive sights if they were interested in hunting with traditional gear? at any rate as I said I hope Idahos new regs work for those who hunt by them, oregon made some small steps in the right direction but still fell short of a traditional hunt, I doubt that there are enough really interested in it to make it fly anyway, enjoy whatever you use and call it whatever makes you feel good I have tired of this exchange as it is obviously pointless to continue.
no more than you are... I would say any conical that is of a type documentable to the period of the gun used would be fine, the modern design ones would be out, it is pretty simple to be traditional if one wants to but most don't which is fine it would just be nice if folks would not try to classify modern stuff as being traditional
why would anyone have a problem useing a traditional projectile and primitive sights if they were interested in hunting with traditional gear? at any rate as I said I hope Idahos new regs work for those who hunt by them, oregon made some small steps in the right direction but still fell short of a traditional hunt, I doubt that there are enough really interested in it to make it fly anyway, enjoy whatever you use and call it whatever makes you feel good I have tired of this exchange as it is obviously pointless to continue.
Jumpshot
54 Cal.
Darn! It was just gettin' good, too... :grin:
Getting all conicals out of a hunting season MIGHT be a possibility, big might. But I think trying to restrict seasons to open fixed sights, will never happen. People just won't go for that and neither will game departments. Open iron adjustable sights only is a possibility, but not fixed.
Way too many people use adjustable sights.
Does this Idaho law restrict powder use at all? I know loose only, but can you still use pyrodex?
Way too many people use adjustable sights.
Does this Idaho law restrict powder use at all? I know loose only, but can you still use pyrodex?
"Way too many people use adjustable sights"
just one last clarification, I am not anti conical or adjuastable sights, just modern design ones being used and called traditional, why not use conicals and adjustable sights documentable to the ML era and or gun type being used, and not mix the old and the new and call it old.someone else can run with it if they want I doubt that it will sink in though.
just one last clarification, I am not anti conical or adjuastable sights, just modern design ones being used and called traditional, why not use conicals and adjustable sights documentable to the ML era and or gun type being used, and not mix the old and the new and call it old.someone else can run with it if they want I doubt that it will sink in though.
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