Identifying an old Brown Bess

[tooold2race]

I’ve had this old Brown Bess since I bought it in 1980 in Atlanta. Here’s all I know about it. (Pictures below). It has a crown engraved with a ‘2’ below it. 1809 is also engraved. The stock is nicely carved or tooled. It obviously saw some serious action back in the day since the stock was ‘field repaired’ with rough cut leather and hand stitched with course thread.... most likely by the camp fire. If you pull back the open’S’ shaped firing mechanism to cock it you can actuate the trigger with a strong snap.
I am not a gun collector and know nothing about them. This has served as a great conversation piece for 40+ years. Any help identifying this Brown Bess would really be appreciated.

 

[cositrike]

I’ve had this old Brown Bess since I bought it in 1980 in Atlanta. Here’s all I know about it. (Pictures below). It has a crown engraved with a ‘2’ below it. 1809 is also engraved. The stock is nicely carved or tooled. It obviously saw some serious action back in the day since the stock was ‘field repaired’ with rough cut leather and hand stitched with course thread.... most likely by the camp fire. If you pull back the open’S’ shaped firing mechanism to cock it you can actuate the trigger with a strong snap.
I am not a gun collector and know nothing about them. This has served as a great conversation piece for 40+ years. Any help identifying this Brown Bess would really be appreciated.

Exactly what it is, I’m not sure, but it is definitely not a Brown Bess. It was never a British military flintlock musket. Possibly Afghan? Others will be more knowledgeable

 

[tooold2race]

Exactly what it is, I’m not sure, but it is definitely not a Brown Bess. It was never a British military flintlock musket. Possibly Afghan? Others will be more knowledgeable

Thank you for the prompt response. Way back when.... I was told by someone who may or may not have been very knowledgeable on the subject, that these muskets were made all over Europe and Africa and based on the stock, it was likely North African. (???)

 

[springfield art]

I’ve had this old Brown Bess since I bought it in 1980 in Atlanta. Here’s all I know about it. (Pictures below). It has a crown engraved with a ‘2’ below it. 1809 is also engraved. The stock is nicely carved or tooled. It obviously saw some serious action back in the day since the stock was ‘field repaired’ with rough cut leather and hand stitched with course thread.... most likely by the camp fire. If you pull back the open’S’ shaped firing mechanism to cock it you can actuate the trigger with a strong snap.
I am not a gun collector and know nothing about them. This has served as a great conversation piece for 40+ years. Any help identifying this Brown Bess would really be appreciated.

That's a Middle Eastern jezail musket, like you see the Camel mounted guys in the old pictures and movies. Is just a nice decorator, not a Bess...maybe the lock came from a British musket originally, the lock alone would have value to someone restoring a Bess...good photos, nice job on them.

 

[Eric Krewson]

Just a guess but I was thinking it might be an old movie prop.

 

[TFoley]

Brown Bess - modern-day replication of the Second Land Model -

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The rampant lion on the lock indicates the East India Company during the 19th century. The gun was probably made in Afghanistan from trade gun parts during the 19th century.

dave

 

[TFoley]

Yup. EIC - East India Company lock.

 

[tooold2race]

Thank you for the information. It adds to the 'conversation piece' value of this old relic.

 

[rickystl]

Welcome to the Forum. Nice old piece that looks like it's seen a lot of action.
In Post #7 above, Dave is spot on. As mentioned above, this gun is what collectors commonly refer to as an Afghan Jezail (there are a couple of different spellings). This style of gun with it's curved butt stock and long barrel remained popular with the local tribes throughout at least the third quarter of the 19th Century. Your gun was probably made sometime in the first half. The Jezail must have been in wide use throughout most of Afghanistan as there are many original specimens available today. From plain to highly decorated.
Low grade copies of these guns are still being made and sold today in the Afghan bazars for the tourist trade for decoration only. But you piece is genuine, with that interesting field repair on the butt stock.
Here are some additional guns. While decorated differently, all start with the general configuration.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Some old photos.......

 

[springfield art]

If that's a real original lock, it's worth more that the gun itself to restorers.

 

[springfield art]

Some old photos.......View attachment 61328View attachment 61329View attachment 61330View attachment 61331View attachment 61334

Great pics, thanks! Nice work bringing that up for us.

 

[springfield art]

Brown Bess - modern-day replication of the Second Land Model -
View attachment 61199

Good photo; full length, no 'distortion'; looks just like my Pedersoli kit! Thanks!

 

[Musketeer]

This style of gun with it's curved butt stock and long barrel remained popular with the local tribes throughout at least the third quarter of the 19th Century.

The wiki page on the jezail indicates that "limited numbers" were used by locals against the Soviets after the Soviet invasion in 1979. There are no sources given for this claim, so it would be interesting to find evidence to back this up. I wonder if any Soviet troop ever actually fell to an Afghan's flintlock?

 

[rickystl]

If that's a real original lock, it's worth more that the gun itself to restorers.

That can be true. I have occasionally bought a well used up gun just to get the lock from it.
The Afghan locals, just as often, made copies of the EIC locks when none were available. The quality was not up to European locks and often had spurious EIC markings. The Jezails with the genuine EIC locks are more valued by collectors.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

The wiki page on the jezail indicates that "limited numbers" were used by locals against the Soviets after the Soviet invasion in 1979. There are no sources given for this claim, so it would be interesting to find evidence to back this up. I wonder if any Soviet troop ever actually fell to an Afghan's flintlock?

Hi Musketeer. Yes, does make you wonder. LOL I once read an account of a Moroccan local that was captured by the French in 1911 that was carrying a snaphaunce musket. LOL
The Afghan jezails seem to run about 50/50 rifled and smooth bore.

Rick

 

[springfield art]

Brown Bess - modern-day replication of the Second Land Model -
View attachment 61199

The color of the stock exactly matches that of the one I did up from the Pedersoli kit.

 

[toot]

Hi,
The rampant lion on the lock indicates the East India Company during the 19th century. The gun was probably made in Afghanistan from trade gun parts during the 19th century.

dave

some call it a DANCING LION. he does seam to be happy?

 

[TFoley]

Heraldically it is called a lion, rampant, dexter. 'Dexter' - right, as it is facing to the right from the POV of a person hold the shield on which the crest would haver been emblazoned. Coats of arms, including crests are usually described in heraldic terminology.

You can call it want you like.