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If no Black Powder then what?
- Thread starter MikeW319
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If you're using cappers, then you can use either Pyrodex P or 3f Triple Seven.
You'll get lots of yowling now that you can in fact get real black if you try hard enough, but I also live in a place where there is no local source. Zero, zip, nada, and the mail/freight carriers won't deliver it. I manage every once in a great while to get some black via private carriers, but the scarcity has forced me to learn to shoot with subs.
Even if you don't face my challenges, it's a good idea to know how to make the subs work for you against the times you can't get black or run out. They require extra measures of cleaning (in spite of the advertising claims), and perhaps some adjustment in your shooting methods. It can be done if you work at solving small issues for your own gun, but you'll never find out if you don't try them.
You'll get lots of yowling now that you can in fact get real black if you try hard enough, but I also live in a place where there is no local source. Zero, zip, nada, and the mail/freight carriers won't deliver it. I manage every once in a great while to get some black via private carriers, but the scarcity has forced me to learn to shoot with subs.
Even if you don't face my challenges, it's a good idea to know how to make the subs work for you against the times you can't get black or run out. They require extra measures of cleaning (in spite of the advertising claims), and perhaps some adjustment in your shooting methods. It can be done if you work at solving small issues for your own gun, but you'll never find out if you don't try them.
I prefer Triple 7, which has less fouling than pyrodex in my experience but which must still must be cleaned. No matter which sub you go to, I would suggest using only magnum caps as they are all harder to ignite than traidtional black powder.
2F black powder.
My first choice would be Pyrodex. Either the "RS" (rifles/shotguns) or the "P" (Pistols).
It is the oldest synthetic BP and the least expensive.
It is loaded using a volume type measure on a 1 for 1 basis with black powder for about the same velocities. (It usually is slightly faster but not my much).
The "P" can be used in a rifle but just like using 3Fg instead of 2Fg black powder a 10-15% reduction gives about the same velocities.
It does foul but I've found that for reasons unknown to me after the first shot the fouling stays about the same as the first shots fouling.
This has allowed me to load without wiping between shots and to shoot for as long as I want to and the 30th shot loads just like the 2nd shot did.
As mentioned, Pyrodex must be measured by volume.
A 25cc container of it has about the same amount of energy as 25cc of real black powder.
I mention this because by weight it is much lighter than real black powder, about 30 percent lighter.
Because it is sold by the pound, one pound of Pyrodex will give the same number of shots as 1 1/3 pound of black powder.
Pyrodex also is usually the least expensive of the black powder substitutes.
It cleans with soap and water just like black powder but as with ALL of the muzzleloading powders the gun must be cleaned as soon as possible after shooting to prevent rust.
777 (or Seven7seven) would be my next choice.
It is also measured by volume but it is more powerful per cc than either black powder or Pyrodex. For that reason Hodgdon, the maker suggests that all powder loads will need to be reduced 15 percent below a black powder load to give a similar velocity.
Quite a few Cap & Ball shooters like 777 because when the cylinder is loaded with the same volume of 777 as their black powder (or Pyrodex) load it is like getting a 15 percent increase in power and velocity.
I don't know what the going price of 777 is now but when I last looked it was way more than 15% higher than Pyrodex so there doesn't seem to be any savings there.
A lot of folks like 777 because it is easy to clean. It also does not produce any significant amount of fouling.
Here again, if the gun is not cleaned soon after shooting rust will develop.
The bottom of the barrel in my opinion is the American Powder or Shockey's Gold.
They are both fairly weak powders and they both are very hygroscopic, that is, they suck up moisture from the air. Once this has happened they will become even weaker and have been known to clump up into hard rock like objects.
I've seen these kinds of powders claim to not need cleaning but don't believe it.
They, like all of the other muzzleloading powders will cause rust if the gun is not cleaned soon after shooting.
As others have mentioned, all of these synthetic black powders have higher ignition temperatures than real black powder.
For that reason they won't work well at all in a flintlock without a real black powder priming charge under them in the barrel of a flintlock.
They are all usable in a percussion gun but I strongly suggest that you buy some Magnum or RWS caps to help them fire.
While I'm standing here I must add, DO NOT USE THE PELLETS in your sidelock.
Not only are they expensive as hell, they limit your ability to adjust the powder load.
In a percussion gun with a true side vented drum they won't fire because their black powder booster charge that's glued to the rear of them won't be hit by the flames from the cap when it fires.
I know you will be hit with the "Use REAL BLACK POWDER" a lot around here but I can sympathize with those out there who don't want to invest $100 or so buying it by mail order.
It is the oldest synthetic BP and the least expensive.
It is loaded using a volume type measure on a 1 for 1 basis with black powder for about the same velocities. (It usually is slightly faster but not my much).
The "P" can be used in a rifle but just like using 3Fg instead of 2Fg black powder a 10-15% reduction gives about the same velocities.
It does foul but I've found that for reasons unknown to me after the first shot the fouling stays about the same as the first shots fouling.
This has allowed me to load without wiping between shots and to shoot for as long as I want to and the 30th shot loads just like the 2nd shot did.
As mentioned, Pyrodex must be measured by volume.
A 25cc container of it has about the same amount of energy as 25cc of real black powder.
I mention this because by weight it is much lighter than real black powder, about 30 percent lighter.
Because it is sold by the pound, one pound of Pyrodex will give the same number of shots as 1 1/3 pound of black powder.
Pyrodex also is usually the least expensive of the black powder substitutes.
It cleans with soap and water just like black powder but as with ALL of the muzzleloading powders the gun must be cleaned as soon as possible after shooting to prevent rust.
777 (or Seven7seven) would be my next choice.
It is also measured by volume but it is more powerful per cc than either black powder or Pyrodex. For that reason Hodgdon, the maker suggests that all powder loads will need to be reduced 15 percent below a black powder load to give a similar velocity.
Quite a few Cap & Ball shooters like 777 because when the cylinder is loaded with the same volume of 777 as their black powder (or Pyrodex) load it is like getting a 15 percent increase in power and velocity.
I don't know what the going price of 777 is now but when I last looked it was way more than 15% higher than Pyrodex so there doesn't seem to be any savings there.
A lot of folks like 777 because it is easy to clean. It also does not produce any significant amount of fouling.
Here again, if the gun is not cleaned soon after shooting rust will develop.
The bottom of the barrel in my opinion is the American Powder or Shockey's Gold.
They are both fairly weak powders and they both are very hygroscopic, that is, they suck up moisture from the air. Once this has happened they will become even weaker and have been known to clump up into hard rock like objects.
I've seen these kinds of powders claim to not need cleaning but don't believe it.
They, like all of the other muzzleloading powders will cause rust if the gun is not cleaned soon after shooting.
As others have mentioned, all of these synthetic black powders have higher ignition temperatures than real black powder.
For that reason they won't work well at all in a flintlock without a real black powder priming charge under them in the barrel of a flintlock.
They are all usable in a percussion gun but I strongly suggest that you buy some Magnum or RWS caps to help them fire.
While I'm standing here I must add, DO NOT USE THE PELLETS in your sidelock.
Not only are they expensive as hell, they limit your ability to adjust the powder load.
In a percussion gun with a true side vented drum they won't fire because their black powder booster charge that's glued to the rear of them won't be hit by the flames from the cap when it fires.
I know you will be hit with the "Use REAL BLACK POWDER" a lot around here but I can sympathize with those out there who don't want to invest $100 or so buying it by mail order.
Mad Professor
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2F $wi$$
paulvallandigham
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Sorry I have to disagree with you Jim, but when you can order as little as 5 lbs of powder at a time, and have it delivered to your door from the suppliers listed here on our "Links" section, there simply is NO excuse not using real Black powder. If you order a full case of 25 lbs, joining other local BP shooters in placing the order, you can drop that cost per lb. down to less than $13.00.
If you want to get good shooting iron sighted rifles, shotguns, and handguns, YOU NEED TO PRACTICE. (I know that Jim practices a lot.)
I don't like new shooters thinking that this is a sport where you can buy the gun and powder at your local hardware store the day before Deer season opens, and go out and "get" some venison. You may be able to do that with modern rifles, but its highly unlikely that you can do it with any traditional Muzzleloader. It takes time to learn what load combination works well in your gun. It take time and practice to learn to shoot your gun well.
Unlike shooting modern suppository guns, where you can buy commercially loaded ammunition for your gun, in this sport, you are combining both Reloading your own ammo, and finding out what works in your gun. Casual shooters should stay out of the fields during Mling seasons, and watch their favorite hunting shows on TV, while drinking a beer at their favorite bar, IMHO. Learning how to load and shoot traditional firearms is Not for the faint of heart! :hatsoff: :hatsoff:
When you consider what it would cost to buy reloading equipment, and the supplies needed to reload modern cartridges, Spending $100 on a powder order for real Black Powder is not too much of a burden. Compared to buying the substitutes, including Pyrodex, the cost of buying Real Black Powder is very reasonable- provided you don't expect to get those discounts buying it one pound at a time, at a retail store near you.
The laws passed after the attack of 9/11 require that black powder NOT Be displayed in the stores for sale. It must be kept in a locked safe, and there are restrictions on how close a store that carries BP can be to residential areas. That is what has dried up the local sources of BP. Even when the store has it, you have to ask for it. Most stores think its illegal to advertise the fact that they sell black powder- its not. You just can't display it. The fees charged these dealers to be able to sell Black Powder are so burdensome that most stores have stopped selling the powder. Only the big chain stores can afford to spend the money to have the powder on hand. That cost is added to the cost a customer pays to buy the powder.
The "Fix" to this, as members here know, is to plan ahead, order powder as a group with other local shooters, and buy the powder in case lot quantities. You are allowed to receive 2 cases of BP in a single shipment, but nothing prevents you from ordering more cases the next day. The reduction in cost by buying powder in quantity is well worth the effort. Since BP lasts forever, if stored in a cool,dry location( and prices on everything are always going up- not down), buying powder in quantity anytime you can do so is a wise investment.
I have some cans of powder my father bought more than 30 years ago, and the powder is as good today as it was when he bought it. You simply can't say that about most of the substitute powders on the market today. :thumbsup: :surrender: :hatsoff:
If you want to get good shooting iron sighted rifles, shotguns, and handguns, YOU NEED TO PRACTICE. (I know that Jim practices a lot.)
I don't like new shooters thinking that this is a sport where you can buy the gun and powder at your local hardware store the day before Deer season opens, and go out and "get" some venison. You may be able to do that with modern rifles, but its highly unlikely that you can do it with any traditional Muzzleloader. It takes time to learn what load combination works well in your gun. It take time and practice to learn to shoot your gun well.
Unlike shooting modern suppository guns, where you can buy commercially loaded ammunition for your gun, in this sport, you are combining both Reloading your own ammo, and finding out what works in your gun. Casual shooters should stay out of the fields during Mling seasons, and watch their favorite hunting shows on TV, while drinking a beer at their favorite bar, IMHO. Learning how to load and shoot traditional firearms is Not for the faint of heart! :hatsoff: :hatsoff:
When you consider what it would cost to buy reloading equipment, and the supplies needed to reload modern cartridges, Spending $100 on a powder order for real Black Powder is not too much of a burden. Compared to buying the substitutes, including Pyrodex, the cost of buying Real Black Powder is very reasonable- provided you don't expect to get those discounts buying it one pound at a time, at a retail store near you.
The laws passed after the attack of 9/11 require that black powder NOT Be displayed in the stores for sale. It must be kept in a locked safe, and there are restrictions on how close a store that carries BP can be to residential areas. That is what has dried up the local sources of BP. Even when the store has it, you have to ask for it. Most stores think its illegal to advertise the fact that they sell black powder- its not. You just can't display it. The fees charged these dealers to be able to sell Black Powder are so burdensome that most stores have stopped selling the powder. Only the big chain stores can afford to spend the money to have the powder on hand. That cost is added to the cost a customer pays to buy the powder.
The "Fix" to this, as members here know, is to plan ahead, order powder as a group with other local shooters, and buy the powder in case lot quantities. You are allowed to receive 2 cases of BP in a single shipment, but nothing prevents you from ordering more cases the next day. The reduction in cost by buying powder in quantity is well worth the effort. Since BP lasts forever, if stored in a cool,dry location( and prices on everything are always going up- not down), buying powder in quantity anytime you can do so is a wise investment.
I have some cans of powder my father bought more than 30 years ago, and the powder is as good today as it was when he bought it. You simply can't say that about most of the substitute powders on the market today. :thumbsup: :surrender: :hatsoff:
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i agree with Paul... if you do a bit of proper prior planning, you will do better in the end.
crowkiller
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Paul
Did you know we can only buy 5 pounds of black powder. Per foid card in each household?
Did you know illinois has their own laws on the proper storage of black powder?
Did you know we can only buy 5 pounds of black powder. Per foid card in each household?
Did you know illinois has their own laws on the proper storage of black powder?
Ray-Vigo
Yankee
If you can't get real BP, I'd go to Pyrodex second, at least for a caplock. Avoiding pre-made pellets is a good idea-- go with the loose stuff so you can vary the load. I agree with Zonie about getting "hot" caps for it because of the higher ignition point.
With a flintlock (maybe you are using a caplock anyway, so give this what weight you will) I think real BP is necessary to try to maximize reliable ignition.
With a flintlock (maybe you are using a caplock anyway, so give this what weight you will) I think real BP is necessary to try to maximize reliable ignition.
I too agree you should try to get real black powder but I also, like Zonie, understand the difficulty of obtaining it. 
I doubt you will find it at less than $13.00 a pound, anywhere. :idunno: I often wonder if some posters live in the real world or not. It isn't as easy as posting a reply, or is it as cheap. :hmm: By all means try to get real black powder but if you can't or don't want the hassle use plain Pyrodex in P or RS. They both work well. None of the other subs work significantly better. And all need to be cleaned so I dismiss that argument off hand :wink: .
I doubt you will find it at less than $13.00 a pound, anywhere. :idunno: I often wonder if some posters live in the real world or not. It isn't as easy as posting a reply, or is it as cheap. :hmm: By all means try to get real black powder but if you can't or don't want the hassle use plain Pyrodex in P or RS. They both work well. None of the other subs work significantly better. And all need to be cleaned so I dismiss that argument off hand :wink: .
crowkiller said:
I moved out of Illinois in 1970 just as the discussions for initiating the FOID were beginning. It wasn't the total motivation but it was part of the algorithim. Sad what has happened to my (original) home state.
North Caroloina doesn't put any overrides on the ATF regs of 50lbs allowed for recreational uses per single family dwelling.
When I made the decision that Flintlocks and real blackpowder were going to be my future for a long time, I found ways to juggle priorities and began buying it by the case directly from a Goex distributor to get the cheapest possible price.
A soon as I finish one case and drop below 25lbs, I reorder the 2nd case to build back up to 50lbs.
As a hedge against the future, my plan is that my Son and Daughter each have a case kept at their 'single family residence'. Those two cases are emergecy backup if new sales should ever become unaffordable or unlawful, and then I'll use those supplies just for 20grn igniter charges under a BP sub and be able to keep shooting Flintlocks for years longer than I'll be alive...
When I made the decision that Flintlocks and real blackpowder were going to be my future for a long time, I found ways to juggle priorities and began buying it by the case directly from a Goex distributor to get the cheapest possible price.
A soon as I finish one case and drop below 25lbs, I reorder the 2nd case to build back up to 50lbs.
As a hedge against the future, my plan is that my Son and Daughter each have a case kept at their 'single family residence'. Those two cases are emergecy backup if new sales should ever become unaffordable or unlawful, and then I'll use those supplies just for 20grn igniter charges under a BP sub and be able to keep shooting Flintlocks for years longer than I'll be alive...
Never heard of a FOID card. Sounds like something Kaliforny would dream up.
UPS has no problem with Haz Mat fee deliveries here in Oregon.
UPS has no problem with Haz Mat fee deliveries here in Oregon.
Herb
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paulvallandigham said:
You're right about that. They ain't been around 30 years yet. And if you think you will be shooting today's black powder 30 years from now (even if you were still alive), I dunno. I plan to use my 50 pounds of Goex up before then.
mtmshieldshotmail.com
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Herb said:
Pyrodex was patented in 1975, and available commercially shortly after that. So it's about 35 years old. (the plant explosion that killed the inventor was in 1977, and I believe the product was available prior to that).
I have a partial canister of Pyrodex "P" circa. 1980 in it's original paperboard canister. One of these days I plan on "chrony-ing" a few loads of this 30yo powder to compare it to a fresh batch.
Regards,
Mike
Erzulis boat
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If you can't source BP, then Flintlocks are not for you.
Shoot a caplock.
I can't purchase BP around these parts, so I purchase my stuff in bulk (TOTW) and shell out the $400.00..............no way around it.
If you are limited to substitutes (for whatever reason) then you are not going to be shooting a flinter.
Shoot a caplock.
I can't purchase BP around these parts, so I purchase my stuff in bulk (TOTW) and shell out the $400.00..............no way around it.
If you are limited to substitutes (for whatever reason) then you are not going to be shooting a flinter.
I just ordered 3lbs of 3f Swiss from Graf&Sons. It was $35.00 per pound that way (kinda pricey), but i wanted to try an unusual number, not the 5,10,or25lb increments. Says in stock, adult signature required. Now how to get it shipped by boat to Alaska :hmm: .
steve
steve
nchawkeye
58 Cal.
Mike...Where do you live, sometime it's available, you just need someone on here to tell you where to look...
Also, we have learned that some of the box stores like Bass Pro actually do have it, you just have to ask (sometimes even the right person in the store), as they keep it stored in a vault in the back...
Also, we have learned that some of the box stores like Bass Pro actually do have it, you just have to ask (sometimes even the right person in the store), as they keep it stored in a vault in the back...
ebiggs said:I too agree you should try to get real black powder but I also, like Zonie, understand the difficulty of obtaining it.
I doubt you will find it at less than $13.00 a pound, anywhere. :idunno: I often wonder if some posters live in the real world or not. It isn't as easy as posting a reply, or is it as cheap. :hmm:
Doubt no more, here it is, directly from the website. Jacks powder is made by Goex, so it's real black powder;
Jacks prices include shipping costs.
Jacks Battle Powder 3F (Goex)... $275 (25 lbs.) $11 per lb
Goex 1FG-4FG... $350 (25 lbs.) $14 per lb
Cannon... $275 (25 lbs.) $11 per lb
Diamondback 3FFF...$275 (25lbs.) $11 per lb
