I'm with Mike Brooks, advise a custom maker like him, for example. If you like Southern Mountain rifles and want to shoot offhand, a .45 caliber straight octagon barrel 42" long in 15/16" would hang like an anvil in a hurricane. Couple that with an "Improved Siler" flintlock and one of Chambers' white lightning vent liners, a set of Davis double set triggers, and you are good to go.
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I think we have all had a rifle we have sold and wish we could find, because it shot so well. this was the perfect combination for me, and I didn't fully apreciate it at the time. I bought it used and could never find out who built it some time in the early 1970s (kind of sad because it was Beautiful wood, with sliding wood patchbox ) it had a 45cal,Douglas 13/16 straight barrel 44" long 1 in 66 twist, I sent the Large Siler lock to (Appalachian Lock I think in West Virginia) and had him tune the lock and put on a roller Frizzen, also the rifle had a single trigger, I found for me that a single trigger in the right place with the right pull, works as well as set triggers (For Me) The stock had just the right amount of Pull and Drop and I could just Point it at the target and the sights were there. I guess my point is if you want a good target rifle (find your combination)and have it built. I wish I still had that Rifle :winking:
If you're looking for a store bought rifle, almost all of the top shooters in my part of the world uses the Pedersoli .54 cal. Mortimer target rifle.
It holds the world record at 100 metres and shooters using this rifle have won the World Championships a number of times. Suitable for roundball with its 1 in 66" twist.
The price is about $1,350 in the US as far as I've found out after a quick google search.
I personally use a custom made Southern Mountain .50 cal. longrifle made by master Steven Bookout at the Toad Hall Rifleshop for 100 metres target shooting and hunting. I'm always beaten by someone using the above rifle, but I do not use peep sights or sling as the Mortimer shooters does.
John Hinnant wanted me to post this article he wrote for you to peruse ... useful info for selecting barrels etc.. this seems like a good spot...
I just noticed that for some reason the page link was not coming up .. so here is the article in toto ..
From the desk of John L. Hinnant ...
" Greetings All,
Gr8whytenorth posted 08-19-05 a question about the capability of the 1-60 rifling twist in the LYMAN GREAT PLAINS RIFLE to shoot a patched round ball accurately. My response was a positive reply, telling him not to be concerned. It would shoot up to his expectations and more IF PROPERLY LOADED.
Since my posting, much personal thought has been given to this question. It seems that the question of rifling styles and pitch is a reoccurring one that is of great concern to the beginning black powder RIFLE shooter. And well it should be. An accurate BP rifle will encourage the novice to continue with his shooting, while an inaccurate one will be cause for disinterest and eventual discontinuation of the activity.
So the following dissertation is a personal attempt to give the beginning BLACK POWDER RIFLE ( be it flintlock or cap lock) shooter some FACTS about the make up of an accurate barrel for the muzzle loading RIFLE.
It has been my pleasure, education, and a source of pride to have spent the last 52 years shooting, hunting, and in some cases working with some the best black powder shooters and craftsmen in the country. The men who attend the TMLRA and the NMLRA annual championship matches and win, do not accomplish this by accident or luck. Their skill level and ability to win with frightful regularity at state and national competition is first attributed to an accurate rifle, and the heart of the their rifles is the barrel.
And let me assure you, these gentlemen are just as skillful in the hunting field as at the firing line of competition shooting. For them, there is none of this, "I can shoot X's on a target all day long, but cannot hit a deer" or vice-versa.
The men of whom I speak are universally together in their requirements for an accurate shooting rifle barrel designed and manufactured to exclusively shoot the CLOTHED PATCHED LEAD ROUND BALL AT 25, 50 100, and 200 yards. Their views on this subject do not vary from my own thoughts on this rifle barrel subject, and while I would in no way attempt to speak for them, it is comforting to know we all share the same opinions, thoughts on this ONE subject.
So let the comments begin with first setting the parameters or guide-lines on this discourse.
My comments will apply ONLY TO A RIFLE BARREL SPECIFICALLY MANUFACTURED TO SHOOT A LUBRICATED CLOTH PATCHED, PURE LEAD ROUND BALL..
I. RIFLING STYLES
There are two BASIC rifling styles in use today. Yes there are more that the old timers used, but today is the standard to review.
1. Lands and grooves are equal width.
2. Grooves are wider than the lands, varying in width according to the individual maker.
Either style will give equal accuracy PROVIDED THE RIGHT PATCH AND BALL COMBINATION IS USED. As an example, both of my Green River Works 50 caliber barrels and 50 caliber Getz barrel shoot best with a .495 ball. All have lands and grooves of equal width. On the other hand, my 1980,s H & H barrel and newer Green Mountain barrels have a decided preference for a .500 size ball, but really shine when loaded with a ball that measures .5035 cast from a Lyman steel mold marked .500.
The same patching material (described in another post) is used with all of the above barrels. Using a thicker patch and smaller ball will not produce equal accuracy or even close to it.
It has long been generally acknowledge that barrels with groove wider than the lands will GENERALLY require a bore size ball to achieve there MAXIMUM potential accuracy such as stated above or in the case of my two H & H 45 caliber barrels, a .451 ball.
The design of the bottom of the rifling groove varies according to the maker, Some are simply grooves with sharp corners. Others have a radius in the corners. Then there are those who radius the bottom of the groove to be concentric to the land diameter. And then there is the barrel maker who puts a radius on the bottom of the groove and a small radius in both corners.
At this time, there are no conclusive test to prove any one of these bottom of the groove designs are significantly more accurate. In the hands of a top shot, all of these designs will shoot winning scores. Other factors become more important.
2. RIFLING GROOVE DEPTH
The best and most accurate ROUND BALL BARRELS have rifling grooves that measure 0.010 - 0.014 inches deep depending on the bore size. Some will say that the deep groove are necessary to trap or or hold the black powder fouling, and if a more modern propellant is used, excessive fouling is prevented, thus eliminating the need for deep rifling. Rifling of 0.006 - 0. 008 is then all that will be needed.
If this idea is correct, then the makers like Briesen, Colerain, Getz, Goodien, Rayl. Rice, the good folks at Green Mountain are wasting their time cutting those deep grooves and charging the customer more for the extra labor.
No, those deep grooves are necessary to get a good grip on the patching that has a tight grip on the ball. In the case of a tight ball and patch combination, the ball is actually partially swaged into the rifling. This is not to say good round ball accuracy cannot be achieved with shallow rifling in the 0.006 - 0.008 inch range. It can be, but USUALLY only if the velocity is kept low to prevent the ball from "jumping" over the rifling. This means that for instance in 50 caliber, the most accurate powder charges will be in the 50 - 65 grain
range of 2FF OR 3FF. If this is not true, why then is Green Mountain making and selling
so many of their drop-in barrels with 1 - 70 inch rifling twist and 0.010 - 0.012 deep rifling?
And why are so many people buying them?
And there is one more consideration. Why are not the men and women who are winning
all of the tinware, plaques and ribbons at the state and national championships doing it
with shallow depth groove rifled factory barrels? No, boys and girls, to get that top
accuracy with other than light powder charges, that deep groove, 0.010 - 0.014 inches, is
needed.
At the 1983 NMLRA National Championships, a long and pleasant conversation was had
Warren Center. I asked him if they did market research before producing the Thompson-
Center Hawken Rifle, and did it reveal the general buying public was not interested in
purchasing ML rifle requiring the use of a patched round ball?
Mr. Center replied yes. In addition, he confirmed this was the reason for the shallow
rifling. It not only maximized accuracy for the easy loading maxi-ball, but as a side
benefit, decreased production cost which could be passed on to the customer. This
in turn would hopefully promote more sales.
He also revealed that he knew this decision would cost him sales with the die-hard
round ball shooter, but the hard facts were, they were not where his greatest market was.
However, if a viable demand developed in the round ball shooter market, reconsideration of
the barrel/rifling question would be reviewed.
Well, we all know how successful the T-C Company has been, and it would be very
difficult to argue with their business decisions. And now you know that part of the
story.
Production cost is another reason so many muzzle loading factory barrels have
shallow groove rifling. With rare exception, the barrels are button rifled. With one pull or
push of the carbide button, the job is done in a matter of minutes. Button rifling
technology is not going to produce rifling much more than 0.006 - 0.008 inches deep.
That depth is on the maximum edge of that technology.
On the other hand the custom ML barrel maker uses a single cutter (called a rifling
saw by the old timers) to laboriously cut one groove at a time. Each groove is cut to
a beginning depth, and then shimmed to cut deeper on the next pass. All grooves
are cut to the same depth before shimming the cutter to cut deeper. My old mentor and
friend, the late Judge H. E. Resley of Ft. Stockton, Texas used roll-your-own cigarette
paper for a shim. This will give you an idea of how little metal is removed, and how
much time will be required to complete the rifling process.
Pre-lapping the bore before rifling is another factor in producing an accurate barrel. At
65 or so, Judge Resley began using unrifled Numrich Arms barrel blanks purchased
from Dixie Gun Works and occasionally G. R. Douglas. After inspecting each one for
straightness and bore flaws, he set about lapping any tight spots out of the bore;
"smoothing it out", as he explained to me. After my 16th birthday, Judge begin to let
me help him pre-lap those blanks. I was amazed and baffled that he took so much
time with something I could barely feel. But he always said the accuracy went into the
barrel before the rifling.
Today I know why. Lead is a dead metal. Once a pure soft lead ball or Maxi-ball slug
passes through a tight spot in the bore, it retains that swaged size. The ball or conical
does not expand back to the tight bore fit as original loaded.
For this reason, many of the old time barrel makers, the Judge included put 3-4 inches
of choke in the bore at the muzzle. When loaded past this choke the ball is swaged to
a smaller size, but upon that micro-second of first ignition and burn of the the powder
charge, the ball obdurates to a larger diameter. If the obdurating is not quite enough,
the muzzle choke squeezes the ball down to a tight bore fit.
Do these barrels really shoot accurately? Over the years, approximately two dozen or
so of barrels made in this way have tested for accuracy. YES! They shot as well as
well as any other barrel that has been personally tested and better than some. But
between you and me, I like my barrel bores to be one constant diameter all of the way
through.
3. RIFLING TWIST RATES
This is a subject of endless argument and debate on this forum, particularly for those who claim to achieve equal accuracy with both round ball and conical in the same barrel with a variety of charges. I will simply state that these apples and oranges do not mix. Somebody is going to have to go out the range and show me, because I have yet to see this mix work up to my defined level of match winning accuracy.
THE 1 - 48" RIFLING TWIST
The 1 - 48" was the more or less official rifling twist of the old barrel makers in the 1700
and 1800's and well into the 1900's. Even today (2005) it is popular with a number of
shooters in various smaller calibers. The original J & S, S., and J. P. Gemmer Hawken
rifles of 1800's St Louis, Missouri used the 1 - 48 rifling with 0.012 - 0.014 inch deep
rifling'. No less an authority than the late Bill Large, barrel maker, confirmed this. Over
the years he re-cut 20 plus original Hawken barrels.
With rifling properly cut to 0.010 - 0.014 inches deep, a barrel with a 1 - 48 inch rifling
twist will deliver match grade accuracy with powder charges ranging from 50 - 90 grains
of 2FF powder or the equivalent of 3FFF. Once the 80 -90 grain load has been reached,
groups start to open up. Some claim the higher velocity is causing the ball to try to jump
the rifling. The late Don Davis claimed the 1 - 48 rifling imparted greater torque to the rifle
at maximum powder charge/velocity levels. According to Mr. Davis, the torque could be
controlled and accuracy maintained by using a firmer grip on the stock. Be that as it may.
when John Baird accuracy tested an original Hawken with 1 - 48 inch rifling, he reported the
the best accuracy was obtained with 130 grains of 2FF Goex Black Powder.
My own 50 caliber Judge Resley barrel with 1 - 48 inch rifling 0.012 inch deep delivers
match grade accuracy with 110 grains of Goex Black Powder, but the recoil is a bit grim.
85 grains is much more pleasant and still give match accuracy.
A gentleman whose name cannot be recalled, used to advertise in MUZZLE BLAST
about re- cutting/deepening the rifling in the T - C Hawken without enlarging the bore
size. The Judge did some of these jobs also. In both cases, accuracy in T-C HAWKEN
rifles took on a new, improved definition.
A properly rifled barrel with a 1 - 48 inch rifling twist is not a handicap and be the best
choice for 32 and 36 round ball caliber.
The 1 - 60" RIFLING TWIST
If my previous post to Gr8whytenorth was read, then reader will know my feelings about
this twist rate. For a combination hunting/target rifle this might be the best twist rate of
all. My wife's Browning 50 caliber, a good friends Lyman Great Plains, and a personal
custom 50 caliber rifle with 1 - 60" rifling give match grade accuracy with a variety of
powder charges ranging from 50 - 100 grains of 2FF or 3FFF.
If torque is the problem with higher velocity loads in the 1 - 48" twist, it is not apparent
in the 1 - 60 " twist. Some of my shooting friends have 40 caliber rifles with a 1 - 60 "
twist. For shooting at 100 yards, they use some charges that will not be stated here.
However, suffice to say those little balls are blue smoking down range. At the TMLRA
home range in Brady, Texas, during the June Championships, with the conditions we
sometimes have, a shooter will want to get that ball down range as quick as possible.
A top powder charge in a 40 caliber rifle with a 1 - 60" rifling twist will do that. My good
Frank Collins claims the 40 caliber is the 22-250 of round ball rifles. He would probably
get no argument from Dennis Steltz.
The 1 - 60'' rifling twist with at least 0.010 - 0.014 inch deep rifling to match the caliber
is an excellent choices in calibers 32 to 75.
THE 1 - 66", 1 - 70", 1 - 72" RIFLING TWIST
These are the rifling twist of choice for the round ball shooter who wants to deliver a 45
caliber or larger ball at the highest possible velocity with maximum accuracy, For
deer size or larger game, these are the best choices. All three share one common
characteristic: best accuracy at 50 yards and beyond, comes with top loads.
WHOA! HOLD ON THERE! I did not said accepttable accuracy was not possible with
powder charges, only that BEST ACCURACY AT 50 YARDS AND BEYOND COMES
WITH THE TOP LOADS.
The 1 - 66" rifling twist made its appearance in the 1960's and by the end of the 60's
had firmly established its presence as king of the hill. it is a good bet that among
custom barrel makers, it is still the leader. Some barrel makers offer only this twist
for calibers 45 and larger. When G. R. Douglas Rifle Barrel Company was making
muzzle loading rifle barrels, the 1-66" twist was the only offering all of their calibers
32 to 58.
The 1 - 70" and 1 - 72" rifling twist is the Best choice for driving the round lead ball
at the highest possible velocity and maintain maximum accuracy, but with a caveat.
If one is wanting a round ball rifle in 50 caliber or larger EXCLUSIVELY for hunting
deer size or large animals, barrels with either one of these rifling twist is the number
choice.
It is an internal/external ballistic fact that when shooting short, stubby projectiles,
(either muzzle loader or modern center fire) the slower the rifling twist, the higher the
projectile velocity must be to obtain maximum accuracy. Examples of this in the
black powder cartridge shooting and the modern center shooting field abound and
are the rule, not the exception. I could cite example after example of this, but after
all, this a muzzle loading forum.
However these same rules and laws of physics also apply to shooting the cloth
patched round lead ball, and gentlemen, like it or not, not too many projectiles are
shorter or stubby than a round ball.
It is just not possible to break the laws of physics regardless of the shape of the
projectile, the type of propellant, or method of loading.
A good friend made up a X-stiks rifle using using an old Montana Barrel in 50
caliber with a 1 - 72 twist rifling. This barrel did not even consider grouping until he
put in 100 grains of 2FF Goex. From that point, ever extra 5 grains tightened up the
group. His most accurate powder charge load was 120 grains o2FF Goex.
Another friend's Green Mountain 50 caliber barrel X-stiks barrel with 1 - 70" rifling
won him the TMLRA X-Stiks State Championship with a load of 110 grains of 3FFF
Goex and a .500 ball.
My own 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel X-stiks rifle demands the same load to
shoot into the X ring consistently.
My 58 caliber Kenneth Briesen bench rest rifle with a 1 - 72"rifling twist requires
185 grains of 2FF Goex to shoot tight enough to take out the 50 yard 6-target X
ring.
The heavy charges required the make these these slow twist barrels shoot at their
best is the reason these barrels are not the best choice for a super accurate
off- hand rifle. Shooting a 9 - 12 pound rifle 40 to 50 rounds a day with 100 plus
grains of powder is not a fun day.
No, barrels with the 1 - 70 and 1 - 72" rifling twist are at their best when used as a
14 pound X-Stiks or unlimited weight bench rest rifle where the heavier rifle will
help tame the felt recoil OR as a big game hunting rifle where probably only 1 to
3 will be fired in a day.
Does this mean that these long slow twist rifled barrels are not a good choice for
all-around-use unless used with a heavy charge. ABSOLUTELY NOT!! In MOST
CASES ,they will produce accuracy with a wide range of low to high powder
charges that is markedly superior to the factory barrel. And the price of some of
these barrels is too attractive to pass up. It is just that in MOST CASES best
accuracy comes with the high-end powder charges.
An excellent example of this is the Green Mountain Drop-in Barrels for the
Thompson-Center Rifles.These are first rate quality, accurate shooting barrels
by any body's standard and priced to meet or beat the marketing competition.To
have a GOOD gunsmith or gun savy machinist fit out and blue a barrel blank to the specifications of a Green Mountain Drop-in Barrel would cost at least $150
more than the price of the drop-in.
Perhaps this is a good place to bring up the closely related subject of balancing
powder burn and barrel length. It is no accident that most bench rest rifles have
long heavy barrels (mine is 2" X 42"). Sight radius aside, these long barrels are
needed to EFFECTIVELY burn the large powder charges of 2FF powder used in
the long slow rifled twist barrels. While my 58 caliber normally uses 185 grains
of 2FF Goex, the 60 and 62 calibers burn 200 plus grains of 2FF powder. The
long barrels are definitely needed.
A barrel much shorter than 36 inches is not going to do the best job of burning
EFFECTIVELY 100 plus grains of 2FF powder. after 100 grains the increase in
velocity is not in proportion to the increase of the powder charge.
Yes, 3FFF powder can be used, but, enough 3FFF to produce the velocities
needed for best accuracy in the slow twist rifled barrels will also produce
dangerous pressures.
It is no accident that a number of the old timers still have warm feelings for a
a properly rifled 1 - 48" twist in an offhand rifle, particularly in calibers smaller
than 50 caliber.
IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT CALIBERS SMALLER THAN 50 ARE THE
EXCEPTION TO THE RULE IN THE SLOW RIFLING TWIST BARRELS.
Calibers 45 and smaller preform much better in the 1 - 48" to 1 - 66" range of
rifling twist. As a matter of personal observation, I have seen many more
accurate Thompson- Center Rifles in 45 caliber than in 50 caliber. This even
with the shallow 1 - 48" rifling.
Regardless of all that has been written here about rifling twist, the bottom line is still the right depth of rifling. As velocity is increased, groove depth becomes more & more important. The
small bores 32 - 40 calibers seem to do quite well with 0.010" deep rifling; 45 - 50 shoot good
in the 0.011" - 0.012 range, and calibers larger than 50 seem to perform better with 0.012 -
0.014" rifling depth.
It is possible to cut rifling too deep for a particular caliber. Patch thickness must grip the ball without excessively deforming it and fill the grooves without wrinkling or wadding up. Rifling
that is too deep causes too thick patch material to bunch up and wrinkle, This will cause
accuracy problems.
The rifle bore, depth of rifling, ball diameter, and patch thickness must all be balanced in relation to each other to produce maximum accuracy.
While I freely admit there are exceptions to every thing previously written, I do not build a rifle to match the exception to the standards. My components, particularly the barrel, are selected on the basis of the proven standards of today. These standards have been and are being proved beyond any argument by serious shooters like Mike Bell, Chuck Bender, Frank Collins, J. L. Hargis, Andy Larson, Branch Manley, Ralph Miller, just to name a few. These men be it cap lock of flintlock; bench rest, cross stiks, or offhand; with in-lines, side hammers, or under hammers shoot 10's and X's at 25, 50, 100, and 200 yards with amazing regularity.Watching J. L Hargis shoot offhand flint lock at 25 yards during the 1983 NMLRA Championship Matches, a friend, Mike Ferris leaned over and said, "Do you think he ever gets tired of shooting X's?"
Unless special match rules call for it, none of the above mentioned gentlemen shoot a rifle with a shallow groove rifled barrel.
I rest my case.
Now, if I can get my friend Davy, the computer guru, to post this for me, I will be extremely thankful and in his debt.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
I just noticed that for some reason the page link was not coming up .. so here is the article in toto ..
From the desk of John L. Hinnant ...
" Greetings All,
Gr8whytenorth posted 08-19-05 a question about the capability of the 1-60 rifling twist in the LYMAN GREAT PLAINS RIFLE to shoot a patched round ball accurately. My response was a positive reply, telling him not to be concerned. It would shoot up to his expectations and more IF PROPERLY LOADED.
Since my posting, much personal thought has been given to this question. It seems that the question of rifling styles and pitch is a reoccurring one that is of great concern to the beginning black powder RIFLE shooter. And well it should be. An accurate BP rifle will encourage the novice to continue with his shooting, while an inaccurate one will be cause for disinterest and eventual discontinuation of the activity.
So the following dissertation is a personal attempt to give the beginning BLACK POWDER RIFLE ( be it flintlock or cap lock) shooter some FACTS about the make up of an accurate barrel for the muzzle loading RIFLE.
It has been my pleasure, education, and a source of pride to have spent the last 52 years shooting, hunting, and in some cases working with some the best black powder shooters and craftsmen in the country. The men who attend the TMLRA and the NMLRA annual championship matches and win, do not accomplish this by accident or luck. Their skill level and ability to win with frightful regularity at state and national competition is first attributed to an accurate rifle, and the heart of the their rifles is the barrel.
And let me assure you, these gentlemen are just as skillful in the hunting field as at the firing line of competition shooting. For them, there is none of this, "I can shoot X's on a target all day long, but cannot hit a deer" or vice-versa.
The men of whom I speak are universally together in their requirements for an accurate shooting rifle barrel designed and manufactured to exclusively shoot the CLOTHED PATCHED LEAD ROUND BALL AT 25, 50 100, and 200 yards. Their views on this subject do not vary from my own thoughts on this rifle barrel subject, and while I would in no way attempt to speak for them, it is comforting to know we all share the same opinions, thoughts on this ONE subject.
So let the comments begin with first setting the parameters or guide-lines on this discourse.
My comments will apply ONLY TO A RIFLE BARREL SPECIFICALLY MANUFACTURED TO SHOOT A LUBRICATED CLOTH PATCHED, PURE LEAD ROUND BALL..
I. RIFLING STYLES
There are two BASIC rifling styles in use today. Yes there are more that the old timers used, but today is the standard to review.
1. Lands and grooves are equal width.
2. Grooves are wider than the lands, varying in width according to the individual maker.
Either style will give equal accuracy PROVIDED THE RIGHT PATCH AND BALL COMBINATION IS USED. As an example, both of my Green River Works 50 caliber barrels and 50 caliber Getz barrel shoot best with a .495 ball. All have lands and grooves of equal width. On the other hand, my 1980,s H & H barrel and newer Green Mountain barrels have a decided preference for a .500 size ball, but really shine when loaded with a ball that measures .5035 cast from a Lyman steel mold marked .500.
The same patching material (described in another post) is used with all of the above barrels. Using a thicker patch and smaller ball will not produce equal accuracy or even close to it.
It has long been generally acknowledge that barrels with groove wider than the lands will GENERALLY require a bore size ball to achieve there MAXIMUM potential accuracy such as stated above or in the case of my two H & H 45 caliber barrels, a .451 ball.
The design of the bottom of the rifling groove varies according to the maker, Some are simply grooves with sharp corners. Others have a radius in the corners. Then there are those who radius the bottom of the groove to be concentric to the land diameter. And then there is the barrel maker who puts a radius on the bottom of the groove and a small radius in both corners.
At this time, there are no conclusive test to prove any one of these bottom of the groove designs are significantly more accurate. In the hands of a top shot, all of these designs will shoot winning scores. Other factors become more important.
2. RIFLING GROOVE DEPTH
The best and most accurate ROUND BALL BARRELS have rifling grooves that measure 0.010 - 0.014 inches deep depending on the bore size. Some will say that the deep groove are necessary to trap or or hold the black powder fouling, and if a more modern propellant is used, excessive fouling is prevented, thus eliminating the need for deep rifling. Rifling of 0.006 - 0. 008 is then all that will be needed.
If this idea is correct, then the makers like Briesen, Colerain, Getz, Goodien, Rayl. Rice, the good folks at Green Mountain are wasting their time cutting those deep grooves and charging the customer more for the extra labor.
No, those deep grooves are necessary to get a good grip on the patching that has a tight grip on the ball. In the case of a tight ball and patch combination, the ball is actually partially swaged into the rifling. This is not to say good round ball accuracy cannot be achieved with shallow rifling in the 0.006 - 0.008 inch range. It can be, but USUALLY only if the velocity is kept low to prevent the ball from "jumping" over the rifling. This means that for instance in 50 caliber, the most accurate powder charges will be in the 50 - 65 grain
range of 2FF OR 3FF. If this is not true, why then is Green Mountain making and selling
so many of their drop-in barrels with 1 - 70 inch rifling twist and 0.010 - 0.012 deep rifling?
And why are so many people buying them?
And there is one more consideration. Why are not the men and women who are winning
all of the tinware, plaques and ribbons at the state and national championships doing it
with shallow depth groove rifled factory barrels? No, boys and girls, to get that top
accuracy with other than light powder charges, that deep groove, 0.010 - 0.014 inches, is
needed.
At the 1983 NMLRA National Championships, a long and pleasant conversation was had
Warren Center. I asked him if they did market research before producing the Thompson-
Center Hawken Rifle, and did it reveal the general buying public was not interested in
purchasing ML rifle requiring the use of a patched round ball?
Mr. Center replied yes. In addition, he confirmed this was the reason for the shallow
rifling. It not only maximized accuracy for the easy loading maxi-ball, but as a side
benefit, decreased production cost which could be passed on to the customer. This
in turn would hopefully promote more sales.
He also revealed that he knew this decision would cost him sales with the die-hard
round ball shooter, but the hard facts were, they were not where his greatest market was.
However, if a viable demand developed in the round ball shooter market, reconsideration of
the barrel/rifling question would be reviewed.
Well, we all know how successful the T-C Company has been, and it would be very
difficult to argue with their business decisions. And now you know that part of the
story.
Production cost is another reason so many muzzle loading factory barrels have
shallow groove rifling. With rare exception, the barrels are button rifled. With one pull or
push of the carbide button, the job is done in a matter of minutes. Button rifling
technology is not going to produce rifling much more than 0.006 - 0.008 inches deep.
That depth is on the maximum edge of that technology.
On the other hand the custom ML barrel maker uses a single cutter (called a rifling
saw by the old timers) to laboriously cut one groove at a time. Each groove is cut to
a beginning depth, and then shimmed to cut deeper on the next pass. All grooves
are cut to the same depth before shimming the cutter to cut deeper. My old mentor and
friend, the late Judge H. E. Resley of Ft. Stockton, Texas used roll-your-own cigarette
paper for a shim. This will give you an idea of how little metal is removed, and how
much time will be required to complete the rifling process.
Pre-lapping the bore before rifling is another factor in producing an accurate barrel. At
65 or so, Judge Resley began using unrifled Numrich Arms barrel blanks purchased
from Dixie Gun Works and occasionally G. R. Douglas. After inspecting each one for
straightness and bore flaws, he set about lapping any tight spots out of the bore;
"smoothing it out", as he explained to me. After my 16th birthday, Judge begin to let
me help him pre-lap those blanks. I was amazed and baffled that he took so much
time with something I could barely feel. But he always said the accuracy went into the
barrel before the rifling.
Today I know why. Lead is a dead metal. Once a pure soft lead ball or Maxi-ball slug
passes through a tight spot in the bore, it retains that swaged size. The ball or conical
does not expand back to the tight bore fit as original loaded.
For this reason, many of the old time barrel makers, the Judge included put 3-4 inches
of choke in the bore at the muzzle. When loaded past this choke the ball is swaged to
a smaller size, but upon that micro-second of first ignition and burn of the the powder
charge, the ball obdurates to a larger diameter. If the obdurating is not quite enough,
the muzzle choke squeezes the ball down to a tight bore fit.
Do these barrels really shoot accurately? Over the years, approximately two dozen or
so of barrels made in this way have tested for accuracy. YES! They shot as well as
well as any other barrel that has been personally tested and better than some. But
between you and me, I like my barrel bores to be one constant diameter all of the way
through.
3. RIFLING TWIST RATES
This is a subject of endless argument and debate on this forum, particularly for those who claim to achieve equal accuracy with both round ball and conical in the same barrel with a variety of charges. I will simply state that these apples and oranges do not mix. Somebody is going to have to go out the range and show me, because I have yet to see this mix work up to my defined level of match winning accuracy.
THE 1 - 48" RIFLING TWIST
The 1 - 48" was the more or less official rifling twist of the old barrel makers in the 1700
and 1800's and well into the 1900's. Even today (2005) it is popular with a number of
shooters in various smaller calibers. The original J & S, S., and J. P. Gemmer Hawken
rifles of 1800's St Louis, Missouri used the 1 - 48 rifling with 0.012 - 0.014 inch deep
rifling'. No less an authority than the late Bill Large, barrel maker, confirmed this. Over
the years he re-cut 20 plus original Hawken barrels.
With rifling properly cut to 0.010 - 0.014 inches deep, a barrel with a 1 - 48 inch rifling
twist will deliver match grade accuracy with powder charges ranging from 50 - 90 grains
of 2FF powder or the equivalent of 3FFF. Once the 80 -90 grain load has been reached,
groups start to open up. Some claim the higher velocity is causing the ball to try to jump
the rifling. The late Don Davis claimed the 1 - 48 rifling imparted greater torque to the rifle
at maximum powder charge/velocity levels. According to Mr. Davis, the torque could be
controlled and accuracy maintained by using a firmer grip on the stock. Be that as it may.
when John Baird accuracy tested an original Hawken with 1 - 48 inch rifling, he reported the
the best accuracy was obtained with 130 grains of 2FF Goex Black Powder.
My own 50 caliber Judge Resley barrel with 1 - 48 inch rifling 0.012 inch deep delivers
match grade accuracy with 110 grains of Goex Black Powder, but the recoil is a bit grim.
85 grains is much more pleasant and still give match accuracy.
A gentleman whose name cannot be recalled, used to advertise in MUZZLE BLAST
about re- cutting/deepening the rifling in the T - C Hawken without enlarging the bore
size. The Judge did some of these jobs also. In both cases, accuracy in T-C HAWKEN
rifles took on a new, improved definition.
A properly rifled barrel with a 1 - 48 inch rifling twist is not a handicap and be the best
choice for 32 and 36 round ball caliber.
The 1 - 60" RIFLING TWIST
If my previous post to Gr8whytenorth was read, then reader will know my feelings about
this twist rate. For a combination hunting/target rifle this might be the best twist rate of
all. My wife's Browning 50 caliber, a good friends Lyman Great Plains, and a personal
custom 50 caliber rifle with 1 - 60" rifling give match grade accuracy with a variety of
powder charges ranging from 50 - 100 grains of 2FF or 3FFF.
If torque is the problem with higher velocity loads in the 1 - 48" twist, it is not apparent
in the 1 - 60 " twist. Some of my shooting friends have 40 caliber rifles with a 1 - 60 "
twist. For shooting at 100 yards, they use some charges that will not be stated here.
However, suffice to say those little balls are blue smoking down range. At the TMLRA
home range in Brady, Texas, during the June Championships, with the conditions we
sometimes have, a shooter will want to get that ball down range as quick as possible.
A top powder charge in a 40 caliber rifle with a 1 - 60" rifling twist will do that. My good
Frank Collins claims the 40 caliber is the 22-250 of round ball rifles. He would probably
get no argument from Dennis Steltz.
The 1 - 60'' rifling twist with at least 0.010 - 0.014 inch deep rifling to match the caliber
is an excellent choices in calibers 32 to 75.
THE 1 - 66", 1 - 70", 1 - 72" RIFLING TWIST
These are the rifling twist of choice for the round ball shooter who wants to deliver a 45
caliber or larger ball at the highest possible velocity with maximum accuracy, For
deer size or larger game, these are the best choices. All three share one common
characteristic: best accuracy at 50 yards and beyond, comes with top loads.
WHOA! HOLD ON THERE! I did not said accepttable accuracy was not possible with
powder charges, only that BEST ACCURACY AT 50 YARDS AND BEYOND COMES
WITH THE TOP LOADS.
The 1 - 66" rifling twist made its appearance in the 1960's and by the end of the 60's
had firmly established its presence as king of the hill. it is a good bet that among
custom barrel makers, it is still the leader. Some barrel makers offer only this twist
for calibers 45 and larger. When G. R. Douglas Rifle Barrel Company was making
muzzle loading rifle barrels, the 1-66" twist was the only offering all of their calibers
32 to 58.
The 1 - 70" and 1 - 72" rifling twist is the Best choice for driving the round lead ball
at the highest possible velocity and maintain maximum accuracy, but with a caveat.
If one is wanting a round ball rifle in 50 caliber or larger EXCLUSIVELY for hunting
deer size or large animals, barrels with either one of these rifling twist is the number
choice.
It is an internal/external ballistic fact that when shooting short, stubby projectiles,
(either muzzle loader or modern center fire) the slower the rifling twist, the higher the
projectile velocity must be to obtain maximum accuracy. Examples of this in the
black powder cartridge shooting and the modern center shooting field abound and
are the rule, not the exception. I could cite example after example of this, but after
all, this a muzzle loading forum.
However these same rules and laws of physics also apply to shooting the cloth
patched round lead ball, and gentlemen, like it or not, not too many projectiles are
shorter or stubby than a round ball.
It is just not possible to break the laws of physics regardless of the shape of the
projectile, the type of propellant, or method of loading.
A good friend made up a X-stiks rifle using using an old Montana Barrel in 50
caliber with a 1 - 72 twist rifling. This barrel did not even consider grouping until he
put in 100 grains of 2FF Goex. From that point, ever extra 5 grains tightened up the
group. His most accurate powder charge load was 120 grains o2FF Goex.
Another friend's Green Mountain 50 caliber barrel X-stiks barrel with 1 - 70" rifling
won him the TMLRA X-Stiks State Championship with a load of 110 grains of 3FFF
Goex and a .500 ball.
My own 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel X-stiks rifle demands the same load to
shoot into the X ring consistently.
My 58 caliber Kenneth Briesen bench rest rifle with a 1 - 72"rifling twist requires
185 grains of 2FF Goex to shoot tight enough to take out the 50 yard 6-target X
ring.
The heavy charges required the make these these slow twist barrels shoot at their
best is the reason these barrels are not the best choice for a super accurate
off- hand rifle. Shooting a 9 - 12 pound rifle 40 to 50 rounds a day with 100 plus
grains of powder is not a fun day.
No, barrels with the 1 - 70 and 1 - 72" rifling twist are at their best when used as a
14 pound X-Stiks or unlimited weight bench rest rifle where the heavier rifle will
help tame the felt recoil OR as a big game hunting rifle where probably only 1 to
3 will be fired in a day.
Does this mean that these long slow twist rifled barrels are not a good choice for
all-around-use unless used with a heavy charge. ABSOLUTELY NOT!! In MOST
CASES ,they will produce accuracy with a wide range of low to high powder
charges that is markedly superior to the factory barrel. And the price of some of
these barrels is too attractive to pass up. It is just that in MOST CASES best
accuracy comes with the high-end powder charges.
An excellent example of this is the Green Mountain Drop-in Barrels for the
Thompson-Center Rifles.These are first rate quality, accurate shooting barrels
by any body's standard and priced to meet or beat the marketing competition.To
have a GOOD gunsmith or gun savy machinist fit out and blue a barrel blank to the specifications of a Green Mountain Drop-in Barrel would cost at least $150
more than the price of the drop-in.
Perhaps this is a good place to bring up the closely related subject of balancing
powder burn and barrel length. It is no accident that most bench rest rifles have
long heavy barrels (mine is 2" X 42"). Sight radius aside, these long barrels are
needed to EFFECTIVELY burn the large powder charges of 2FF powder used in
the long slow rifled twist barrels. While my 58 caliber normally uses 185 grains
of 2FF Goex, the 60 and 62 calibers burn 200 plus grains of 2FF powder. The
long barrels are definitely needed.
A barrel much shorter than 36 inches is not going to do the best job of burning
EFFECTIVELY 100 plus grains of 2FF powder. after 100 grains the increase in
velocity is not in proportion to the increase of the powder charge.
Yes, 3FFF powder can be used, but, enough 3FFF to produce the velocities
needed for best accuracy in the slow twist rifled barrels will also produce
dangerous pressures.
It is no accident that a number of the old timers still have warm feelings for a
a properly rifled 1 - 48" twist in an offhand rifle, particularly in calibers smaller
than 50 caliber.
IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT CALIBERS SMALLER THAN 50 ARE THE
EXCEPTION TO THE RULE IN THE SLOW RIFLING TWIST BARRELS.
Calibers 45 and smaller preform much better in the 1 - 48" to 1 - 66" range of
rifling twist. As a matter of personal observation, I have seen many more
accurate Thompson- Center Rifles in 45 caliber than in 50 caliber. This even
with the shallow 1 - 48" rifling.
Regardless of all that has been written here about rifling twist, the bottom line is still the right depth of rifling. As velocity is increased, groove depth becomes more & more important. The
small bores 32 - 40 calibers seem to do quite well with 0.010" deep rifling; 45 - 50 shoot good
in the 0.011" - 0.012 range, and calibers larger than 50 seem to perform better with 0.012 -
0.014" rifling depth.
It is possible to cut rifling too deep for a particular caliber. Patch thickness must grip the ball without excessively deforming it and fill the grooves without wrinkling or wadding up. Rifling
that is too deep causes too thick patch material to bunch up and wrinkle, This will cause
accuracy problems.
The rifle bore, depth of rifling, ball diameter, and patch thickness must all be balanced in relation to each other to produce maximum accuracy.
While I freely admit there are exceptions to every thing previously written, I do not build a rifle to match the exception to the standards. My components, particularly the barrel, are selected on the basis of the proven standards of today. These standards have been and are being proved beyond any argument by serious shooters like Mike Bell, Chuck Bender, Frank Collins, J. L. Hargis, Andy Larson, Branch Manley, Ralph Miller, just to name a few. These men be it cap lock of flintlock; bench rest, cross stiks, or offhand; with in-lines, side hammers, or under hammers shoot 10's and X's at 25, 50, 100, and 200 yards with amazing regularity.Watching J. L Hargis shoot offhand flint lock at 25 yards during the 1983 NMLRA Championship Matches, a friend, Mike Ferris leaned over and said, "Do you think he ever gets tired of shooting X's?"
Unless special match rules call for it, none of the above mentioned gentlemen shoot a rifle with a shallow groove rifled barrel.
I rest my case.
Now, if I can get my friend Davy, the computer guru, to post this for me, I will be extremely thankful and in his debt.
Best regards and good shooting,
John L. Hinnant
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