Ignition source ?? (read carefully...)

[roundball]

I posted this some time ago and never got an answer to the question. Got a lot of "better be carefuls", "you shouldn't do that's", etc, etc...but never actually got an engineering, technical answer to the question.

The situation has to do with the occasional comment that a barrel and load should be soaked in water for at least a half hour before pulling a load to avoid the risk of an accidental discharge when pulling a load...thought I'd post again in case others might see it and be able to provide the specific technical answer...read carefully:

THE SITUATION:
Finish a hunt and dump the prime or remove the cap.
Plug vent or nipple so breech end is totally sealed air tight.
Drive home and lay rifle across a padded workbench.
Use non-sparking ramrod & ball puller to pull non-sparking lead ball.

THE QUESTION:
Under the conditions described above, what would be the ignition source that would set off the charge in the sealed bore while pulling the ball?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Under the conditions described above, what would be the ignition source that would set off the charge in the sealed bore while pulling the ball?

None I can think of.

 

I tried one of those CO2 cartridge thingies. It worked. A lot less hair raising than pulling a ball that is over powder. I never liked doing that! But if you are trying to be authentic I guess the CO2 cartridge won't be in your kit.

 

[roundball]

I tried one of those CO2 cartridge thingies. It worked. A lot less hair raising than pulling a ball that is over powder. I never liked doing that! But if you are trying to be authentic I guess the CO2 cartridge won't be in your kit.

Sorry, but no cigar...you didn't answer the question

 

[Zonie]

IMO as long as you pulled the ball/patch outward or let it stop while you were pulling it the air in the barrel under the ball will be in a zero or negative pressure condition. It will therefore stay cool. Under these conditions there is nothing to set off the powder charge so it would be relatively safe.

If however you (for whatever reason) pushed the ball down (with the vent plugged as you indicated) it will increase the air pressure around the powder charge rapidly.
As I said in the other post, rapid compression of air to 50 pounds per square inch will raise the air temperature to about 400 degrees F.
If something rapidly increased the air pressure to 100 PSI it will raise the air temperature to 800 degrees F.

Powder will detonate at those temperatures resulting in the gun "firing" the ball, ramrod and possibly chunks of your anatomy for great distances.

Hope this sounded kinda "Engineering" enough.

 

[tg]

Some heat would be generated as the screw works its way into the ball but I would not think that it would be enough to cause ignition, I suspect the procedure is another case of "overthinking" the safety issue with BP. I often pull a ball at days end and do not give ignition of the powder a second though.

 

[Haggis]

A ramrod in a sealed barrel, with a ball attached to one end of it, and tinder under the ball is a fire piston.

Fire pistons rely on the principle that when air is compressed, it heats up (this is the same principle that is used in diesel engines). If you compress air enough, it will heat up enough to ignite tinder. A fire piston consists of a cylinder and a plunger that fits into the cylinder with a nearly air-tight seal. A tinder material is placed into the cylinder and the plunger inserted a short ways. Then the plunger is suddenly and quickly forced into the cylinder, compressing the air and raising its temperature quickly and igniting the tinder.

 

I move too slow, to generate any heat!!

 

[Stumpkiller]

Just what is a "non-sparking ramrod & ball puller"? If you drilled into the ball off center, the screw (usually steel) could work into the barrel itself. Pulling this would draw a shaving off the metal of the barrel, and steel shavings can become red hot with the friction. If it's a fiberglass rod it is an excellent static electricity conductor (ask a boater who's had his Shakespeare VHF antenna swatted by lightening).

I ask again, as I did on the original thread, "why do you ask?" The practice of soaking the load is the same as fastening your seatbelt even though you've never had an accident or carrying a fire-extinguisher in your boat even though you've never has a gas explosion. It just further insures an accidental discharge won't happen. Like when you're telling the paramedics "I'm sure I pulled the percussion cap off . . . didn't I?"

No one can force you to soak your powder, read an owner's manual or wear a condom if you don't want to. If you don't want to just don't. I never have on the rare occasions I've pulled a ball. Perhaps no kid ever really did "shoot his eye out", but mothers still say it because they care. I still see lots of folks talking on their cell phones while driving or pumping gas (even though both are illegal in this state). Haven't seen one of them drive off the
road or burst into flames yet . . . but I'm still hopeful.

Ask yourself this: "Is it worth trying to explain that it couldn't possibly have gone off to your wife while standing over your son's lifeless body?" They call them "accidents" because they weren't planned or anticipated. "I thought the workbench was padded." "I thought the ramrod was non-sparking." "I thought the primer was cleared." "I thought, etc, etc."

No one ever get shot with unloaded guns. LOTS of folks get shot with guns that were thought to be unloaded.

 

[djnye]

the analogy of the fire piston fits much more closely with loading a rifle than it does with unloading a rifle.

with that in mind, it makes one wonder if there is the possibility that many rifle pre-mature firings that are attributed to an ember are actually caused by the molecular action of compressing a gas.

na!!! cold rifles don't go off when loading or we all would of heard of that by now. i am no more nervous unloading a ball than i am loaing one. (actually i am somewhat nervous with both and that helps my keeping focused on the task at hand.)

take care, daniel

 

[musketman]

THE QUESTION:
Under the conditions described above, what would be the ignition source that would set off the charge in the sealed bore while pulling the ball?

Spontainious Combustion and/or Ball Lightning... ::

Spontainious Human Combustion energy is transfered to the main charge via the ramrod and ball puller...

This combustion energy then converts into a condense charge of ball lightning as it arcs from the ramrod to the steel barrel and then to the main charge...

"IF" this didn't take place at the ball pulling level, the owner of the muzzleloader would have ignited in a balze of Spontainious Human Combustion, setting his house on fire in the process...


OK, here is a real attempt at the question, the breech area was still sealed when the ball was tried to be removed, the charge was set off by vaccumm pressure.

 

Okay, I'll try again after reading carefully! The Islamic terrorist living across the street from you accidently sets off the nuke he is building in his basement! That's as close as I can get to an answer but you will probably hammer me again with "no cigar". Hee Heee !

 

[roundball]

A ramrod in a sealed barrel, with a ball attached to one end of it, and tinder under the ball is a fire piston.

Fire pistons rely on the principle that when air is compressed, it heats up (this is the same principle that is used in diesel engines). If you compress air enough, it will heat up enough to ignite tinder. A fire piston consists of a cylinder and a plunger that fits into the cylinder with a nearly air-tight seal. A tinder material is placed into the cylinder and the plunger inserted a short ways. Then the plunger is suddenly and quickly forced into the cylinder, compressing the air and raising its temperature quickly and igniting the tinder.

Interesting information of course, but doesn't answer the question in my post... ::

 

[roundball]

Just what is a "non-sparking ramrod & ball puller"? If you drilled into the ball off center, the screw (usually steel) could work into the barrel itself. Pulling this would draw a shaving off the metal of the barrel, and steel shavings can become red hot with the friction. If it's a fiberglass rod it is an excellent static electricity conductor (ask a boater who's had his Shakespeare VHF antenna swatted by lightening).

I ask again, as I did on the original thread, "why do you ask?" The practice of soaking the load is the same as fastening your seatbelt even though you've never had an accident or carrying a fire-extinguisher in your boat even though you've never has a gas explosion. It just further insures an accidental discharge won't happen. Like when you're telling the paramedics "I'm sure I pulled the percussion cap off . . . didn't I?"

No one can force you to soak your powder, read an owner's manual or wear a condom if you don't want to. If you don't want to just don't. I never have on the rare occasions I've pulled a ball. Perhaps no kid ever really did "shoot his eye out", but mothers still say it because they care. I still see lots of folks talking on their cell phones while driving or pumping gas (even though both are illegal in this state). Haven't seen one of them drive off the
road or burst into flames yet . . . but I'm still hopeful.

Ask yourself this: "Is it worth trying to explain that it couldn't possibly have gone off to your wife while standing over your son's lifeless body?" They call them "accidents" because they weren't planned or anticipated. "I thought the workbench was padded." "I thought the ramrod was non-sparking." "I thought the primer was cleared." "I thought, etc, etc."

No one ever get shot with unloaded guns. LOTS of folks get shot with guns that were thought to be unloaded.

No cigar for you...didn't answer my question ::

 

[roundball]

THE QUESTION:
Under the conditions described above, what would be the ignition source that would set off the charge in the sealed bore while pulling the ball?

Spontainious Combustion and/or Ball Lightning... ::
Spontainious Human Combustion energy is transfered to the main charge via the ramrod and ball puller...
This combustion energy then converts into a condense charge of ball lightning as it arcs from the ramrod to the steel barrel and then to the main charge...
"IF" this didn't take place at the ball pulling level, the owner of the muzzleloader would have ignited in a balze of Spontainious Human Combustion, setting his house on fire in the process...
OK, here is a real attempt at the question, the breech area was still sealed when the ball was tried to be removed, the charge was set off by vaccumm pressure.

No cigar for you...BUT...you get a GOLD "H" for humor !!!!!!! ::

 

[roundball]

Okay, I'll try again after reading carefully! The Islamic terrorist living across the street from you accidently sets off the nuke he is building in his basement! That's as close as I can get to an answer but you will probably hammer me again with "no cigar". Hee Heee !

Musketboy, I really had to pause a moment...but...nahhhhhhhhhh...not a nuke...no cigar for you!! ::

 

[Stumpkiller]

This better be an Opus XX cigar after all this work. The ignition source in your scenario would be:

Something over about 450 degrees.

Possible solutions:

The cap your wife picked up off the floor, and knew just enough about your hobby to put in helpfully on the nipple.

The priming charge your son put in the pan after cocking the lock to demonstrate to his buddy how daddy's swell gun worked (when you were off in another room selecting vice pads).

Just because you don't provide a source in your question parameters doesn't mean Murphy can't find one in your basement. And Musketman may have it with the spontaneous combustion theory. Any farmer knows not to bail damp hay because it can cause a barn fire weeks later. So if you loaded with a spit moistened linen patch and packed the load very tightly, then brought it indoors after a hunt (ambient temperature change - say 50 degrees - and whatever effect the chamge in indoor vs outdoor humidity . . .

 

Would you believe an Islamic terrorist with a cigar !!

 

[Stumpkiller]

I KNOW! It was one of them invsible Weapons of Mass Destruction that Sadam was hidin under Bush's bed.

This is too darned hard. I say it was Col. Mustard with the candlestick in the library.

 

You are all wrong! Hah !! It was Janet Reno burning rubber in her old beater Ford pickup truck that set off your smokepole ! God help us all. It will never be safe to leave a ball in the barrel with powder in front of it !!!!! Aaaahhhh!