In case of FIRE !

[50cal.cliff]

I am not sure this is the place to discuss this but here goes! In the town next to mine we had a house fire last week. The owner was out of town. When firemen responded they were driven back by rounds of ammo going off and numerous explosions, at the time thought to be gernades. Turns out the owner was an avid sportsman and gun enthusiast like myself. He did have countless live rounds of ammunition. He also reloaded, so had aolt of gun powder around. Hence the explosions they thought were gernades. Also had a large quantity of gasoline stored. The gas had been stored in the garage (I assume). We leave in NW Florida and are subject to hurricanes, as two years ago proved. I am guessing this is the reason or perhaps he caught gas down and bought several cans and added stabil to keep it from going bad. I have done this but don't store it in my house.
By the way our local news stated this man also had large quantities of BP stored; and this statement was by our local news, NOT MYSELF!! Quote, ("Some of the explosions were caused by stored BP, BP being the most unstable form of powder"). Any form of powder exposed to fire and heat is not going to be stable for long!
Now I do not store gas in my house or garage. I do however have a closet in my house where a substancial amount of live rounds are kept. Since I have recently gotten into muzzleloading I will have a quantity of BP to store somewhere. Since this incident I have been giving this situation some thought. Where am I going to store this BP safely. I know a bunch of you are goin to say gun safes. If I could afford one I would all ready have one.
Now I would be willing to bet money I am not the only one looking at this same problem. A closet full of live rounds and BP doesn't sound like the best of combinations
Anyone got thoughts as to storage of live rounds, BP, and other gun related items that might explode because of a fire in our homes? Storage in a shed would be an option. However in our area we are subject to very high heat and humitity the better part of the year, which tends to make this not a solution for me. I am looking for any reasonable discussioon on this subject! :hmm:

 

[silverfox]

Just one suggestion I'm sure you will get others. Do you have and old refrigerator or chest type freezer. You always hear of the fireman getting a cold drink out of the refrigerator after they put out the fire. This would work even in a seprate storage shed.
I stored some this way in a barn and we get 40 to 50 days a year over 100% with high humidity just like you do.
Fox :hatsoff:

 

[Rebel]

Yep, the old fridg is as good as anything and better than most. If you want it secred put a hasp and lock on it.

 

[RetiredMedic]

Their is no full proof way not causing that to happen if you had a fire in you home.

All my BP and loaded ammo are in military ammo cans and put in my basement which is cool and dry...

Now being retired from the NYC FD last 2 years, and having many of friend still working with FD and Police force. I notified the firehouses and station house in my area and advised them what my hobby was. So if I ever had a fire, the guys responding would know what I had in my basement.

I would hate to see one of my brothers get hurt, not knowing what they are walking into..

 

[cowpoke1955]

I saw a powder magazine on a site the other day. It held 50 one pound cans and had double locks on the lid. You might be able to place it in the ground, under a shed. This way it's out of the sun light and the ground would keep it cooler than the surrounding air. If I remember right, it was running about $250. Just can't remember which site. Just a thought.

 

[blacksmithman64]

You could probably have your local fabrication shop weld one up for you out of scrap for not much money too.

 

[George Holton]

My powder is stored inside a 10in steel cylinder, actually oil well drill pipe,with the bottom welded on and with a slip over cover about two foot long with a rubber gasket. Buried in the highest part of the side yard ,under the dog house.Been there for thirty years and still good, sealed in heavy bags inside the cylender.I dont shoot modern except .22 so fixed ammo is no problem. Bob

 

[barebackjack]

We had a fire alarm at my apartment this winter. I keep my BP in rubbermaid containers in the closet. I just took it with me when I evacuated. (Left my $2300 Les Paul guitar behind). Didnt think it would be nice letting some firemen walk into that unawares and such.

Granted, this wouldnt work if your not home at the time.

 

[DCF]

The health and safety people in the uk have done a lot of work on this kind of thing - making boxes, putting BP in them and putting fire underneath to see what happens. Our current requirement is for a wooden box of a certain specification which has been shown to resist fire best (so far) and not make a very good bomb whilst doing it. Peter Starley has a lot of knowledge about this, his web site has some details if you are interested on http://www.black-powder.co.uk/woodenbox.pdf
Incidentaly, we (Brits) don't get a choice - we MUST have one of these spec boxes or we don't get a BP licence!

 

[J.D.]

My powder is stored inside a 10in steel cylinder, actually oil well drill pipe,with the bottom welded on and with a slip over cover about two foot long with a rubber gasket. Buried in the highest part of the side yard ,under the dog house.

An acquaintence, whose wife doesn't like the idea of BP in the house, buries his extra powder in a 5 gallon plastic bucket with a snap on lid under the doghouse.

His powder is safe from moisture, heat, cold, and nosey neighborhood kids.

He is safe from the wrath of the Old Lady. :surrender: :rotf: :rotf:

J.D.

 

[Many Klatch]

A friend of mine had a lot of black powder stored in his garage. The garage caught fire. When the fire department showed up he tried to get the firemen to train their hoses in the corner where the powder was. They just ignored him. He went to the Chief and told him that it was a shame that he was going to lose all that neat equipment. When the Chief understood the problem he had one hose trained on the blackpowder. They finally got the fire out. After the owner could get back into the garage he grabbed one of the cans of powder. The heat had been hot enough that the screw cap had come unsoldered from the can. When they poured the powder out in their hand the heat of the powder burned the skin.

Blackpowder will only go off with a spark or a flame. You can't make it go off by hitting it or heating it. Don't store it with primers or centerfire ammo, they will cook off. Mixing centerfire ammo with blackpowder is not advised.

Sportsmans Guide occasionally sells stamped steel NATO hand grenade storage boxes. These are made of 1/8" steel with tight fitting lids. I think this is probably a good idea for storing your cans of powder. Keep your powder dry and away from sparks and you should be OK.

Many Klatch

 

[Homesteader]

I had a pound of 3Fg in the closet of my bedroom in an apartment I rented many years ago. A disgruntled renter down the hall set his place on fire, and I smelled the smoke just before turning in for the night. (Thank God!) Opened the front door (forgetting everything I learned about doors and fires) and was hit in the face by smoke and heat. I slammed the door, grabbed my dog and room-mate's cat, and risked the stairs to get out.

When the fire dept. got there I found the chief right away and told him about the powder. He actually sent me up, between two firefighters, to retrieve the can myself. Don't know why they wouldn't get it themselves or why they escorted me up and back down, but it's a true story.

All the smoke and darkness and smells and soot and distant crackling sounds gave me a deep appreciation for the job those boys do. I sure wouldn't want it.

By the way, my neighbor was convicted of arson, and did time. Stupid boy.

 

[Slamfire]

I'm not here to argue with the FDs of the world, but tests have shown that modern ammo that cooks off doesn't launch bullets. Instead the primers, being the lightest are the first thing to exit the cases. Why is this? Because the brass case isn't contained in an action. The primers don't have enough energy to penetrate the standard fireman's suit.

 

[Many Klatch]

In the same fire that I was discussing earlier there were also some centerfire rounds stored on a shelf. After the fire the brass cases were still on the shelf but the bullets were gone from them. I don't know what caliber they were.

Many Klatch

 

[50cal.cliff]

Well thanks for all the bits of advice. Still don't now exactly how I will handle my storage of BP. At least I have some good ideas to work with. Just thought I would throw this out there because it has been in the back of my mind every sense that fire. Allthough I had already thought about the problem.
I have a nice lockable shed.I had thought about storing in. The heat and humidty was my big concern out there, as in the summer months you won't want to spend long in there.
Also had a problem with two legged varmits. Caught two trying to break into my shed here awhile back. A gang of juveniles has been working my neighborhood for months. Told the sheriff I sure would hate to have to live the rest of my life knowiing I had killed a youngin. Told the kids when the police confronted them that night. That if I had something that a fellar needed and I could spare it I would be glad to help out. If you come to me like a man and ask, but when you come sneaking on to my property and steal from me, :nono: well that's a whole another matter. These kids killed a dog that hemmed them up in a yard where they had jumped a fence to steal something, beat it to death with a steel rod they found in the yard. Guess I am getting way off the subject though. Thanks again !!!

 

[2172]

The NRA did a number of tests a few years ago, and published the results in the American Rifleman. There had been a couple of sporting good store fires, and the newspapers had tales of "bullets set off by the wire wizzed past the firemen's heads.."and such. They were able to prove that a cartridge set off by heat/fire, not in a chamber, just barely expels the bullet...
Hank

 

[George Holton]

One more thing and then away. Wonder if the dogs in their dog houses , ever worry about what is in their basement??????? :hmm: Very old Bob

 

[Jac Spring]

Thanks for the tip on Sportsman's Guide - I'm a buyers club member and took a look to see if they had em in stock - yep - $18 + $12 shipping! But hey, $30 is still a good price for that.

I am certain that the miliatry spent a lot of taxpayer money on designing these storage cans so that they would react in a safe way if the grenades somehow detonated in the box.

Much better than my current situation - my 5 lb.s of BP is sitting with my smokeless powder in my reloading cabinet at the present time.

Also, I can tell you from personal experience at the range watching (from a distance) rounds cook off in a trash barrel that the bullets can come out but not very fast- they just "pop" - as mentioned, the cartridge needs pressure to work. Also, smokeless powder just burns. BP also burns but much more rapidly - close to explosive velocities, so is considered such.

Interesting about the heat not causing the BP to combust - I suppose that changes when things get red hot...

 

[50cal.cliff]

Thanks for the lead on the gernade cans from Sportsman guide. Liked what I seen so much I ordered two of them, cheaper if you buy two. Like that better than current storage situation.
Do have a couple of more questions though. Sealed in a can like these gernade cans with a rubber seal. How would that affect powder, say in my shed where it is exposed to extreme high heat? Does exposure to high heat affect the powder? How about humidity, sealed in those cans with gasket lined lids will that be a problem? :hmm:

 

[Jac Spring]

Well my 2 cents - if you seal the powder in the can in a low-humidity environment, then the powder should maintain the low humidity. If its moist when you close the lid and the temp outside of the box falls, it could cause condensation inside.

As to the explosion of the powder while sealed - that's what attracted me to this - the military would have designed them to minimize shrapnel in such an event - but maybe I'm off on that? Just figure that they took as much care with that as they do with everything else - not that it always turns out the way they plan....