India made vs Italian, USA etc, RB accuracy at 50 yds

[Texas Gil]

I have a 15 year old India trade gun and have often wondered how the RBI’s accuracy stakes up to Pedersoli, and custom smooth bore guns.
I get just under 4” group at 50 yds but after that it gets much wider.
Will I do much better at 50 and beyond with a Gun that cost 3 times more?

 

[Maven]

I wouldn't complain about that, TG!

 

[Brokennock]

I have a 15 year old India trade gun and have often wondered how the RBI’s accuracy stakes up to Pedersoli, and custom smooth bore guns.
I get just under 4” group at 50 yds but after that it gets much wider.
Will I do much better at 50 and beyond with a Gun that cost 3 times more?

I'm not meaning to sound sarcastic, but, barring a physical/mechanical issue with a gun,,,, probably not. A tube is a tube, is a tube. And basically with a smoothbore we are just shooting a tube attached to a piece of wood and some other parts to make it easier.
Accuracy/group size is more a function of patient load development with attention to detail, and, ability of the shooter to hold a certain way on the target, get up and load the gun, and return to that exact same shooting position, again and again.

Any difference between smoothbore guns for inherent accuracy would probably be more a function of barrel thickness than cost of the gun. My thicker barreled smoothrifle is easier to shoot smaller groups with than my thinner barreled Fusil des Chase. Both guns are of similar quality and cost.

I'm betting your gun can do a bit better than just less than a 4 inch group at 50 yards, although this is certainly a reasonable group.

 

[LME]

I have a 15 year old India trade gun and have often wondered how the RBI’s accuracy stakes up to Pedersoli, and custom smooth bore guns.
I get just under 4” group at 50 yds but after that it gets much wider.
Will I do much better at 50 and beyond with a Gun that cost 3 times more?

I have shot more rifles than I can remember but not very many Muzzle loaders. The one thing I have found out over the years is a rifle that want shoot a good group is usually not the fault of the barrel. Trigger geometry, poor action, and the number one cause, the finger on the trigger are what I have found to be the problem.

 

[Steve Martin]

The answer to your question is...no.

 

[Texas Gil]

I'm not meaning to sound sarcastic, but, barring a physical/mechanical issue with a gun,,,, probably not. A tube is a tube, is a tube. And basically with a smoothbore we are just shooting a tube attached to a piece of wood and some other parts to make it easier.
Accuracy/group size is more a function of patient load development with attention to detail, and, ability of the shooter to hold a certain way on the target, get up and load the gun, and return to that exact same shooting position, again and again.

Any difference between smoothbore guns for inherent accuracy would probably be more a function of barrel thickness than cost of the gun. My thicker barreled smoothrifle is easier to shoot smaller groups with than my thinner barreled Fusil des Chase. Both guns are of similar quality and cost.

I'm betting your gun can do a bit better than just less than a 4 inch group at 50 yards, although this is certainly a reasonable group.

Yep I’m still taking your advice and developing a more accurate load. Your comment on your heavier barrel shooting better is a good one to keep in mind. I know that I shoot better groups with my heavier barreld rifles. Never put that together before. Thanks again I always appreciate your input.
Maybe make a smooth rifle out of a Kentucky or Hawken. Bobby Hoyt would do that for $125. Hmmmm

 

[hanshi]

You're doing just fine with what you've got. Spending a small fortune for a Pedersoli won't help at all.

 

[user 49399]

Nope.

 

[Musketeer]

I agree with those above. I don't think you could get a whole lot better than what you have in terms of accuracy. I went with a Pedersoli Bess over an Indian example for other reasons: genuine walnut stock vs Indian rosewood/teak, better fit and finish, and relatively easily obtained replacement parts should they be needed (plus, at the time I bought mine there was less than $300 difference between the two, due to a sale a Cabela's); however, I think a good shooting India gun will do as well in terms of hitting a target at distance as anything else.

 

[TreeMan]

I have a Pedersoli Bess carbine and Pedersoli trade gun. I’ve never gotten a four inch group at 50 yards. You better keep what you have and save your money. I need to get back to working up a better load to meet your Indian gun standards lol.

 

[Texas Gil]

Thanks, looks like consensus is
Don’t upgrade for accuracy!
Think I’ll stick with my India gun. I treated mine like a kit. Removed wood from the stock and slimmed it down. Browned the steel parts and refinished the stock. Polished the bore and the lock parts.

I have a Pedersoli Bess carbine and Pedersoli trade gun. I’ve never gotten a four inch group at 50 yards. You better keep what you have and save your money. I need to get back to working up a better load to meet your Indian gun standards lol.

it’s very frustrating and does require a lot of time. There are so many variables to consider that at times I just want to give it up. However it keeps me coming back again and again to beat this game. I am I believe getting closer to getting the most out this old gun. I was beginning to think the Indian gun was the problem but it’s me!
Thanks for the input

 

[Brokennock]

I was beginning to think the Indian gun was the problem but it’s me!

Don't be too hard on yourself.
Think about the physical mechanics of what we are trying to do when dialing in a load with a muzzleloader.
Please allow me a brief comparative mention of suppository guns.
When we bench rest and shoot, say a bolt action or autoloader rifle, to dial in sights or test reloads to find the best load, we get in our position to the best of our ability, relaxing into a natural point of aim and adjusting until that is right. We shoot one round and barely have to move, if at all, to load the next shot. We hold our position fine tune our aim again, and shoot the next round, and repeat. Not much really changes from shot to shot if our technique is even half way decent.
With a muzzleloader, we load our gun and position ourself on the bench, gun rested on sandbags or something else (something soft, hard surfaces change p.o.i.) just like we did with the suppository gun. We take our shot to the best of our ability, just like before. But now things change. To load our next round we have to completely abandon our shooting position. We now have to load the gun, and then regain that shooting position at the bench. What are the odds we are in the same position, compared to shooting the cartridge gun?
A smoothbore with no rear sight compounds the problem. You now have to regain that position of natural point of aim, along with the same cheek weld, the same head position so the eye is in the same position as it is the rear sight.
Again, how likely is it to get all these things the same every time through a five shot group, having to start over completely for every shot?

Maybe come up with some type of temporary rear sight or other reference point to ensure position and how your are "aiming" rains the same, and try the same load that is your best one right now. Don't worry about p.o.i. yet. Mostly we want to know of the group shrinks now that you have more consistent reference/aiming points.

I hope that came across clearly.

 

[GoodRabbitPilgrim]

I have a Pedersoli Bess carbine and Pedersoli trade gun. I’ve never gotten a four inch group at 50 yards. You better keep what you have and save your money. I need to get back to working up a better load to meet your Indian gun standards lol.

I spoke to Pedersoli about the Indian trade gun and they suggested a .614 ball with a thin patch and around 70 gr 2F from memory.

 

[Texas Gil]

Don't be too hard on yourself.
Think about the physical mechanics of what we are trying to do when dialing in a load with a muzzleloader.
Please allow me a brief comparative mention of suppository guns.
When we bench rest and shoot, say a bolt action or autoloader rifle, to dial in sights or test reloads to find the best load, we get in our position to the best of our ability, relaxing into a natural point of aim and adjusting until that is right. We shoot one round and barely have to move, if at all, to load the next shot. We hold our position fine tune our aim again, and shoot the next round, and repeat. Not much really changes from shot to shot if our technique is even half way decent.
With a muzzleloader, we load our gun and position ourself on the bench, gun rested on sandbags or something else (something soft, hard surfaces change p.o.i.) just like we did with the suppository gun. We take our shot to the best of our ability, just like before. But now things change. To load our next round we have to completely abandon our shooting position. We now have to load the gun, and then regain that shooting position at the bench. What are the odds we are in the same position, compared to shooting the cartridge gun?
A smoothbore with no rear sight compounds the problem. You now have to regain that position of natural point of aim, along with the same cheek weld, the same head position so the eye is in the same position as it is the rear sight.
Again, how likely is it to get all these things the same every time through a five shot group, having to start over completely for every shot?

Maybe come up with some type of temporary rear sight or other reference point to ensure position and how your are "aiming" rains the same, and try the same load that is your best one right now. Don't worry about p.o.i. yet. Mostly we want to know of the group shrinks now that you have more consistent reference/aiming points.

I hope that came across clearly.

Crystal. I’ll write that down and follow strict sequence on my next trip. Wow you’re a good coach!

 

[toot]

I have a 15 year old India trade gun and have often wondered how the RBI’s accuracy stakes up to Pedersoli, and custom smooth bore guns.
I get just under 4” group at 50 yds but after that it gets much wider.
Will I do much better at 50 and beyond with a Gun that cost 3 times more?

I think that is very acceptable? jmho.

 

[Surfinator58]

I remember years ago when I used to surf many of the builders drive to squeeze every inch of performance out of their creations I found that enjoyment of the sport was more important to me than technology we used to have a saying that the best surfer was the one who was having the most fun

 

[Artificer]

I guess I look at things differently than some people. That isn't judging anyone, it is merely a statement of fact.

To me, the preparatory stage of getting the best group possible out of my smoothbore or rifle is a challenge and a different kind of enjoyment/self-satisfaction once I've found the best load for accuracy. I have always wondered why people would find a gun or rifle truly useful if they did not do this.

Then I can enjoy shooting it more either on the range or in matches or hunting, because it is as accurate as I can make it. I believe it is also essential for humane hunting. THAT way, if I will know it is ME if a shot goes off my aiming point. I don't mind getting out shot by others that way, because I know I made the best shot/s I could make at the time. It can also help me to figure out what I need to work on to improve my own shooting.

Colonel Townsend Whelen once famously said “Only accurate rifles are interesting.” I wholeheartedly concur, as explained above.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I guess I look at things differently than some people. That isn't judging anyone, it is merely a statement of fact.

Agreed!

Especially when I am successful enough to get something to outperform what others have said was the best that could be expected.

OH and I think for the smoothies, between something from Italy, India, or something used from TC, or something from Spain that has been converted to smooth bore..., the lock, and the trigger pull might be more of an indicator of an advantage (If one may be gained) than the barrel. Especially with flintlocks, the speed at which the flint striking the frizzen causes enough sparks to ignite the pan and cause the piece to fire might be what gives some shooters an advantage with one brand over another. PART of that would also be the trigger pull.

So in some shooting scenarios a person with a heavy trigger and a lock that doesn't really ignite until the frizzen has been fully scraped by a completed impact of the flint..., that person might find an advantage when switching to a gun that has a lighter pull and a lock that begins a shower of sparks at the merest touch of the flint. Probably in a standing, unsupported firing position would be the manner where that would manifest.

On the other hand, the person who always in the woods, supports their firing position/stance with a tree trunk or low branch..., there may be no advantage at all.

LD

 

[toot]

I guess I look at things differently than some people. That isn't judging anyone, it is merely a statement of fact.

To me, the preparatory stage of getting the best group possible out of my smoothbore or rifle is a challenge and a different kind of enjoyment/self-satisfaction once I've found the best load for accuracy. I have always wondered why people would find a gun or rifle truly useful if they did not do this.

Then I can enjoy shooting it more either on the range or in matches or hunting, because it is as accurate as I can make it. I believe it is also essential for humane hunting. THAT way, if I will know it is ME if a shot goes off my aiming point. I don't mind getting out shot by others that way, because I know I made the best shot/s I could make at the time. It can also help me to figure out what I need to work on to improve my own shooting.

Colonel Townsend Whelen once famously said “Only accurate rifles are interesting.” I wholeheartedly concur, as explained above.

Gus

then I guess that mine fall some where in the end of that quote!

 

[Whughett]

I'm not meaning to sound sarcastic, but, barring a physical/mechanical issue with a gun,,,, probably not. A tube is a tube, is a tube. And basically with a smoothbore we are just shooting a tube attached to a piece of wood and some other parts to make it easier.
Accuracy/group size is more a function of patient load development with attention to detail, and, ability of the shooter to hold a certain way on the target, get up and load the gun, and return to that exact same shooting position, again and again.

Any difference between smoothbore guns for inherent accuracy would probably be more a function of barrel thickness than cost of the gun. My thicker barreled smoothrifle is easier to shoot smaller groups with than my thinner barreled Fusil des Chase. Both guns are of similar quality and cost.

I'm betting your gun can do a bit better than just less than a 4 inch group at 50 yards, although this is certainly a reasonable group.

Makes sense. Not a flint or percussion long gun shooter but in any long gun I’ve read the the projectiles travel down the bore sets op vibration’s or harmonics that affect the bullets path. Heavy barrel guns are always more accurate than than those with slender tapered barrels.