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Indian Knife Sharpening

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crockett

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Some of the Indians in the Rocky Mountain west sharpened their scalper knives on one side only. I believe this may have been done with a draw file. The standard reason given for this is the Western Indians indulged in the buffalo hide trade and a scalper sharpened on just one side put less nicks in the hide. Okay- that answered the question for me until.....
Yesterday. I was reading an article in one of the major knife magazines and this guy advocated sharpening a knife that way. He said Sushi knives are only sharpened on one side. He said this chisel type edge cuts the primary bevel angles in half which makes for easier cutting and yet in a downward cut there is the flat back side with steel behind the edge- although he did admit the thin bevels could cause a rolled edge more easily.
Now I got thinking...ummm....
If sharpening on only one side puts less nicks in a hide- how come most fur trappers today don't sharpen their knives that way? They don't to my knowledge. I don't.
So... whadda yall think? :hmm: :hmm:
 
My skinning knife is sharpened this way. It doesn't volunteer to puncture the hide, it goes where I want it to. Work knives(hoof knives for trimming horses' feet) are sharpened on one side only. This keeps the knife from gouging the foot. Customers don't like to see their horses bleeding all over the barn floor.
 
A professional sushi knife is sharpened on only one edge, a style known as "kataba". For right-handed knives, this is the right edge, and for the rarer knives made for left-handed cooks, the left edge is sharpened instead. Having only one edge of the knife sharpened allows for cleaner cuts and more precision, but learning to use only one edge is more difficult and takes many beginners some time to master.
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One of the best services that the current Knife Magazines( particularly "BLADE" magazine, IMHO) serve the public is by teaching people how to see knives as TOOLs, rather than weapons. The reason we have different shaped blades, and different angles of bevels, and single vs. Double edged blades, is because of the different kinds of work we want to do with the blade.

If modern "trappers" don't have chisel shaped knives for skinning, they are uninformed. A lot of information of this kind was never reduced to writing, as it was taught from father to son. There is good information out there, as well as bad information. The old guys were not always right! For good information about putting edges, and bevels on knifes, and other blades, see " The Razor Edge Book of Knife Sharpening". At one time I had more than 6 different books on knife making, on my book shelf. I am down to three, having given or thrown away the others. The best book among the three I have now is the one above. I keep the others because they have great pictures of custom made knives, with interesting shaped blades to solve different cutting problems. They are my " tool Catalog" when it comes to knives. The Hoof Knife, or " Crooked Knife" as its sometimes known, is one you have to find in catalogs that sell knives for farriers.

Chisel shaped knives are great for cutting thin slices of meat, and, naturally, for separating Meat and sinew from hide. YOu can use a doubled sided blade to skin, but it takes more care. I have done it many times, when that was all I had.
 
Well pretty interesting stuff if you ask me- I think most trappers buy their knives from trapping catalogs and the primary bevels are typical- not flat on one side, so.....that's the way they get sharpened. At least that's my story! In any event I'm going to see if I can sharpen up some blades with the chisel type bevel.
And....just as trapping season is opening up! :grin:
 
jbtusa said:
I have used a typical "skinning" knife for years, to include skinning deer, moose and caribou. It would have been perfect for my buffalo but I didn't have it with me that day. The "skinner" knife has a standard edge which is sharpened on both sides.

Sushi knives are sharpened on only one side, becuase of the "slicing" they do. Go to any professional butcher shop or slaughter house and look at their knives. Chances are, they are sharpened on both sides.

(Even one "one sided" knives are sharpened on the 'other' side to remove the burr) :wink:
 
oletymepreacher: you seem to be perhaps the only one amongst us that actually uses a knife sharpened on just one side. As I said, when I first noticed some of the Indian scalpers of the Rocky Mountain west sharpened on only one side my first thought was "Why?". Several folks gave me the standard answer about they were used to skin buffalo and the one sided sharpening put less nicks in the hide. Not knowing anything else- I was satisfied with that answer, and...- it may be true. Pichou says the scalpers in the Great Lakes area were not sharpened on one side- so why the difference? It would seem the buffalo trade may be the reason.
In any event, I guess you could say I've skinned a fair share of critters over the years with a regular- sharpened on both sides- knife and I've never really had a problem with nicks as long as I do my part.
The article in the knife mag- I think it was Blade- contended that the one sided sharpening made for a thinner blade that cuts deeper with less effort.
In any event, my experience is the most important thing is a really sharp blade- no matter how it is sharpened. Trying to work with a dull blade on hide, etc is next to useless. The only other thing I was thinking was if buffalo hide was unique- tough gristle- or the like- and a one side sharpened blade could sort of double as a fleshing knife. If the fairly straight bladed (as compared to a skinning knife) scalper was used that way- it may explain why the scalper was so popular even though one of the Wilson knives looked a lot like the Green River buffalo skinner except that it had a more rounded tip- like a modern day Dexter beaver knife.
 
Ernie Emerson suggests sharpening his tactical knives the same way referencing Japanese bladesmiths and the edge their knives carry. Seems interesting that all the different eras, makers, uses, and technology end up pointing one way.
 
That's an interesting point, of the scalpers I've seen that were sharpened that way, the side sharpened would be the left side if you were pointing the blade away from you, edge down, or- put another way- the side that usually has the stamp mark on it.
BTW. it seems to me that re-working a blade so drastically would have been about impossible using a stone- a file must have been used and the technique was probably draw filing.
 
Indians in the east did this as well. It might very well have something to do with ease of sharpening and hide-removal, as has been mentioned, but it's important to remember the quality of trade goods.

Especially before the mid-19th century, most trade-knives were of soft, inexpensive iron rather than steel. Often these knives were case-hardened to give them a bit of edge-retention. If you sharpen both sides, you'll quickly wear through the thin jacket of steel and expose the soft iron, and your knife won't scalp so hot, anymore. But if you only sharpen one side, you'll still have a razor-thin layer of steel at the cutting surface.

At least, that's the reasoning among us blacksmiths.
 
I don't know or have heard about sharpening knives on just one side.
However, I do know that the craftsmen of Wather Knives of Dover, Ohio do ask you if you or the primary user of the knife is right or left handed and bevel or sharpen accordingly.
 
I have relatives with Brulé Lakota Sioux. They got trade kniwes before white contact, by means of trade routes. They received normal sharpened knives (sharpened on both sides). They always removed the edges (with sandstone or files) and resharpened it only on one side (chisel style) in order to ease skinning and in order to keep the edge sharper longer... They actualy reworked what whites think to be sharp knives...
 
I worked for Norton CO. for many years..
We Quarried first and then made sharpening stones in our Pike NH and latter Littleton plants for over 150 years.. until the assholes at corporate levels decided to move to Mexico. :cursing:
I have heard of and seen many different sharpening techniques.
If they work for you.. then use them.
Having sharpened thousands of Knifes.
Mostly modern ones.. I like the carbon steel ones the best..JMHO.
I have found that
1. holding a consistent angle.
2. go from coarse to fine stone using a light lube. "why would you use a metal file"??
2. sharpen the blade equally on both sides
3. use a leather strop when done.
Having never "skinned a buffalo :surrender: " or scalped anyone. :idunno:
I can't address those issues.
I can tell you using my tried and true sharpening methods.. I can use the knife to shave with when I am done sharpening it.
 
I doubt there are any Sioux left who know why they sharpened them that way but if you have the chance to find out- let us know. As I said at the start I was told years ago it was because they dealt in buffalo hides and the one sided sharpening caused less nicks AND- being the lunkhead that I am- I was satisfied with that answer and gave it no more thought. Then, as I said, I read that magazine article about the bevel being cut in half which made a thinner blade that cuts with less effort.
Just to make sure everyone knows what I am talking about- if you hold the knife at a 30 degree angle to a wet stone- you sharpen that side at 30 degree but the other side is 30 degrees as well so the bevel is 60 degree on the edge. If you do the chisel, then the edge has only a 30 degree bevel.
I am also wondering if using a file sort of put a tiny serrated or jagged edge on the knife.
In any event, I am re-thinking things and now leaning a bit more to the idea that the Indians sharpened on one side because the edge was thinner and cut better and if the knife wore out the Indians just got another one.
 
All files and abrasives cause small " Teeth" to form on the edges of any blade. The finer the abrasive, the smaller the "teeth". However, for a blade to be sharp enough to shave with, those " teeth" need to be removed.

That is what stropping a blade does after you finish putting a fine burr on the edge with your hardest wet stone. Stropping removes the "burrs", and those fine teeth. The Benefit of doing this, is that these teeth are no longer attached to the actual, or " True Edge" where they can catch onto something hard, and TEAR a chunk out of the true edge. Its the repeated tearing into the true edge that causes blades to "dull".

I recently bought some of those "diamond hones" at Harbour Freight, to use with some of my kitchen knives. They do remove steel. However, even the finest "hone" leaves way too much of a burr on the edge of the blade.

The other day, I grabbed a stainless steel spoon, and used the side of its shank to strop the edge on a recently sharped paring knife where I used the fine diamond hone. It produced a much superior edge on the knife. Its not as good as using my leather belt "strop" for the same purpose, but my belt and stones were in another room in the house, and I was trying to prepare some meat in a hurry.

In commercial kitchens, where the tables are almost always made of stainless steel these days, I have used the Edges of a table to strop knives to bring the edges up straight, after someone has let them get dull, and crooked by cutting around bones, and pressing the edge against the bones too much. Straightening the edge lets you use the knife a while longer, but any abuse of the edge will require re-honing, eventually.

Files,and those grooved Steels sold for " sharpening" knives will both ruin a fine edge, and leave teeth of one size or another, as well as burrs. If you must have a hard "strop", use a plain piece of stainless steel, polished as smooth as a mirror, to strop your knife again. [For those who are new to using knives, when you HONE an edge, the movement of the blade against the hone is always Towards the Edge. When you STROP an edge, the movement is always AWAY from the edge.]

For the doubting Thomases, and my peanut gallery of critics, here, I recommend using a good magnifying glass, or microscope set at 10x, and natural light to look at edges before and after whatever it is you use. Then, try it my way, and look again.

Either use the Instruction sheet that Roger Needham passes out to customers at his "tent" at the entrance at Friendship, or read his article on "How to Sharpen a Knife", published a couple of years ago in Muzzle Blasts. Or, you can buy " The Razor Edge Book of Knife Sharpening" by John Juranitch, to learn about all this. I buy my honing stones from Roger. I learned my skills in sharpening knives( and chisels and other edged tools) from The Razor Edge Book, and by being a skeptic enough to try everything they wrote, and others have written I could find on sharpening knives.

I am still amazed at the ads still allowed on TV where companies are conning the viewers with little tricks to "prove" they are practically Giving you a knife that is "indestructible" .

I watched one the other day, where they pretended to Dull the edge on some thing hard, and then sliced a tomato. In doing the slice, they stroked the knife blade, only slightly , but like any saw would be used. The real proof of the edge of a knife is whether you can slice that same tomato just pushing down lightly on the edge, without the sawing action. Just like you would expect to use a knife to peel a potato, or slice an apple. :hmm:
 
Morlock said:
Especially before the mid-19th century, most trade-knives were of soft, inexpensive iron rather than steel.

Actually, it's the other way round. English knives were required to have a steel blade, and even in the 1600's, a minimum of a steel cutting edge. By the early 1800's, thinks sorta fell apart, and there are all kinds of court cases and new regs. One famous maker was found guilty of exporting cast iron blades and trade points.

Also penalties, seizure of goods etc. for being marked cast steel when they weren't, hand forged when they weren't...

Recently saw a nice PCJ&Co blade sharpened on one side. The mark side. :grin:
 
Pichou- we still have to figure out what was the difference between the common and the warranted scalpers- Carl P. Russell has a quote from Crooks about it. I think Crooks was trying to get an order from the Indian Department and he offered two different styles, each at a different price. I sure would like to figure what style was what. In other words, it seems to me the warranted might have been better steel but in Crook's letter it also sounds like the two models looked different from one another. There were some scalpers that instead of having a tang that was more narrow than the blade had a tang (half) as wide as the blade and the scales were of normal width so the tang protruded above and below the handle. The Yellowstone Crow scalper is like that as is the one owned by Joe Keenon (sic?) of Portland OR. The one at Yellowstone NP is too rusted for the stamp to show but Joe's has the +/F stamp of Furniss/Cutler. On some knives that look like scalpers the scales are bone- maybe jigged bone or stag and the tang has been filed to match the curvature of the handle material (this is in the Baldwin Book). I've often wondered if these wide tang styles were cheaper to produce and were the "common" pattern. In any event any feedback greatly welcomed.
 
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