Yeah the whole test a small section then toss those tested, but recomend to test every other barrel individualy if not represented in the test group looses me somewhere, but there are so many things that I am unaware of, this is probably just another of many :idunno: I think I will stick with Colerain, Rice or one of the other popular domestic made barrels and trust to the manufactuing quality here in the states rather than subject a barrel to undo stress, I understand why they were tested "back then" oh crap! I don't even know when that was historicaly, chalk up another one :shake:
Indian made flintlocks
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Curt LaManna
40 Cal.
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I really don't know why this subject is even here, on the forum? None of these come in "Rifled" as all of them are Smoothbores.
I have a few of them, Indian made guns, and a lot of other really expensive custom Flintlocks, some as high as $4000-5000, the Indian made guns are shootable, safe for what I use them for, and only a filler for guns not available in the open market.
I drill my own touch holes and proof them in the Desert tied down to a tire. I get behind a solid object and test each one. I've never had a problem.
Overall, being a Firearms Dealer since 1984, I would always buy a used custom gun, before I would chose one of the Import guns. I've bought a wonderfully well-made Jaeger, in .62 cal., and many others second hand for $500-900, and the guns are just better made for fit and finish, without a doubt. OTOH, I do own an Indian made, Scottish pistol, Murdoch style, a Matchlock .75 cal., a Fish Tail Flintlock., .75 cal and a Brass barrel Blunderbuss. All have been satisfactory "Shooters" and decorators. I don't overload them.
I prefer a Brooks made Fowler, my Jim Gefroh, Big Bore Jaeger in .58, and my Steve Zihn, .62 and .50 cal Rifles.
Given $600-800 cash in hand, I'd be looking for a nice used Flintlock, on the sales boards or GB and take that, over any Indian Made import.
If my absolute budget was $300-400, I would have not much of a choice, in buying an Indian Made flintlock. Just plan on sending it to a good BP smit, to work over the parts, such as the lock.
JMHO...
And my deepest respects to all of the American BP makers, such as Brooks, Zihn, Day, Gefroh, and all the others, that are the finest Craftsman.
Their skills will keep this sport alive.
I have a few of them, Indian made guns, and a lot of other really expensive custom Flintlocks, some as high as $4000-5000, the Indian made guns are shootable, safe for what I use them for, and only a filler for guns not available in the open market.
I drill my own touch holes and proof them in the Desert tied down to a tire. I get behind a solid object and test each one. I've never had a problem.
Overall, being a Firearms Dealer since 1984, I would always buy a used custom gun, before I would chose one of the Import guns. I've bought a wonderfully well-made Jaeger, in .62 cal., and many others second hand for $500-900, and the guns are just better made for fit and finish, without a doubt. OTOH, I do own an Indian made, Scottish pistol, Murdoch style, a Matchlock .75 cal., a Fish Tail Flintlock., .75 cal and a Brass barrel Blunderbuss. All have been satisfactory "Shooters" and decorators. I don't overload them.
I prefer a Brooks made Fowler, my Jim Gefroh, Big Bore Jaeger in .58, and my Steve Zihn, .62 and .50 cal Rifles.
Given $600-800 cash in hand, I'd be looking for a nice used Flintlock, on the sales boards or GB and take that, over any Indian Made import.
If my absolute budget was $300-400, I would have not much of a choice, in buying an Indian Made flintlock. Just plan on sending it to a good BP smit, to work over the parts, such as the lock.
JMHO...
And my deepest respects to all of the American BP makers, such as Brooks, Zihn, Day, Gefroh, and all the others, that are the finest Craftsman.
Their skills will keep this sport alive.
If Indian muskets are wallhangers because their govt. doesn't consider them real guns, then by that definition neither are any made here. A muzzleloader is not considered a firearm...no ffl required to sell or ship. No proofing.
Like I stated before, I have had zero issues with my MVT fowler. I have also seen one piece of junk from another source. They are not nearly on par with custom guns, but I don't believe that makes them dangerous.
Like I stated before, I have had zero issues with my MVT fowler. I have also seen one piece of junk from another source. They are not nearly on par with custom guns, but I don't believe that makes them dangerous.
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Hi Folks,
I think people are very badly misunderstanding the information by Blair at Loyalist Arms. Perhaps he could have explained better but he is not illogical or arguing using double speak. He is explaining that today's industrial makers test a subset of barrels to failure. That way they have a quality control assessment for a production line of barrels. They know at what level their barrels will fail. However, standard proofing as done by official facilities such as the historical English proofing houses, tested all barrels at some proof load (like 2 balls and double the powder load) that demonstrated the barrel was safe under more than normal conditions but did not compromise the barrel for sale. Remember, all barrels accepted by the London guild were proofed in those days. That is what I think Blair is recommending for all muzzleloading barrels today.
dave
I think people are very badly misunderstanding the information by Blair at Loyalist Arms. Perhaps he could have explained better but he is not illogical or arguing using double speak. He is explaining that today's industrial makers test a subset of barrels to failure. That way they have a quality control assessment for a production line of barrels. They know at what level their barrels will fail. However, standard proofing as done by official facilities such as the historical English proofing houses, tested all barrels at some proof load (like 2 balls and double the powder load) that demonstrated the barrel was safe under more than normal conditions but did not compromise the barrel for sale. Remember, all barrels accepted by the London guild were proofed in those days. That is what I think Blair is recommending for all muzzleloading barrels today.
dave
Capt. Jas.
58 Cal.
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None are required to but if they operated in the land of curry they would all have to if they were producing firearms.gizamo said:
Ray-Vigo
Yankee
I think a lot of the work in terms of barrel safety. is done in the leg work of getting a gun. The sort of thing I mean is knowing who made the gun, knowing who made the barrel, examining the barrel and workmanship, etc. I don't proof my guns, but I think my chances of being safe are at least somewhat improved through research. There's always a chance something goes wrong, but I think the odds get better if you do your homework, even if the barrel is not proofed formally. I don't lose sleep over the fact that mine were not.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Firelock66 said:
You obviously didn't read anything I suggested - they are "imitation guns" because they can not, as manufactured, be fired. If flintlock, there is no drilled touch hole and if percussion there is no drilled flash channel. To convert these guns into "real" firing guns simply requires drilling and that can certainly be done in India or anywhere else but to convert the imitation guns into real firearms in India the work has to be done by someone licensed to do so and that licensee is then required to have the gun proofed just like any other real firearm. It then has not only the backing of the person doing the work but also the word of the proof house that it is safe to use. That is Indian law.
I am not saying that your "MVT fowler" isn't a real gun, it obviously is since you have drilled it's flash hole and it functions. Nor am I saying that it isn't safe but I would not under any circumstances guarantee that it is, it was not made, under Indian law, as a firearm and therefore it will always be in doubt - the maker in India is safely covered by American law since it was imported as a non-functioning item and was converted by someone else. No one backs it up. And yes, you can say the same thing about American made muzzleloaders but no barrel maker or gunmaker in this country sells his or her work as non-functioning and our court system makes it a very uncomfortable situation if a firearm fails. Not so with a self modified foreign import that you have done the work on yourself.
also take into consideration that they can ship these guns to other parts of the world BECAUSE they do not drill the touch hole, therefore they are not considered to be real functional firearms, that is how they can ship them to places where they, otherwise would not be able to do so otherwise because of gun regulations.
And again, we all want to bring more shooters into the sport, but not all can afford several thousand dollar guns, and I am not knocking the great talent that we have on this forum, for I would truly love to own one of those guns myself, but lets not discourage someone from getting something that they can afford, I own a MVTC Indian musket, own 2, the first was stolen and never had a bit of trouble with it, it IS not a true bess replica, but it is a good start for someone to get into the hobby, and it is a dependable gun that's as safe as I am, as all our guns are only as safe as we are, if we get stupid with them, they will hurt us.
And again, we all want to bring more shooters into the sport, but not all can afford several thousand dollar guns, and I am not knocking the great talent that we have on this forum, for I would truly love to own one of those guns myself, but lets not discourage someone from getting something that they can afford, I own a MVTC Indian musket, own 2, the first was stolen and never had a bit of trouble with it, it IS not a true bess replica, but it is a good start for someone to get into the hobby, and it is a dependable gun that's as safe as I am, as all our guns are only as safe as we are, if we get stupid with them, they will hurt us.
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
tiger13, I can't really disagree with anything you said, you made good points. Let's just hope that they hold together for as long as people want to shoot them. :hatsoff:
Va.Manuf.06 said:
Actually, he did not drill his own flash hole, it comes from MVT like that as do the guns from Loyalist Arms.
The guns from the Discriminating General do not come with the flash hole drilled and are sold as wall hangers that can be drilled to be made functional. However, they specifically disclaim any responsibility if you turn their wall hanger into a functioning gun. The other two company's products are sold as functioning muzzle-loading black powder firearms.
Virtually no one who hunts or target shoots their muzzleloader would care for their gun the way these guns that have failed have been treated by their owners.
By the way, I have a picture of the Pedersoli that failed at the breech from firing blanks if you want to see it.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
twisted_1in66 said:
Go right ahead.
wahkahchimaol.com
45 Cal.
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I have visited MTV. Pete proofs his firearms.
Owning an India-made gun is sometimes the best choice.
If the gun is a prop in an exhibit which is going to be thrashed. If you are going to shoot blanks almost all of the time. If you simply can't afford any other gun and owning India-made guns will give you access to the world of living history. And if you can't find any other gun which is a replica of the time period you are seeking.
I have to agree that they aren't the world's best, but sometimes they are the best choice.
Every gun I know which has blown up was abused in some way. We should post case studies of those blowups here as a learning experience. Maybe we can figure out a trend. From here, though, it all looks like abuse.
Owning an India-made gun is sometimes the best choice.
If the gun is a prop in an exhibit which is going to be thrashed. If you are going to shoot blanks almost all of the time. If you simply can't afford any other gun and owning India-made guns will give you access to the world of living history. And if you can't find any other gun which is a replica of the time period you are seeking.
I have to agree that they aren't the world's best, but sometimes they are the best choice.
Every gun I know which has blown up was abused in some way. We should post case studies of those blowups here as a learning experience. Maybe we can figure out a trend. From here, though, it all looks like abuse.
In some ways they are more Historically correct, than some folks care to admit. After a good tune, some of their locks are perhaps a better representation than modern locks. I have no issue with the better company's barrels.
Restocked, they might make for an interesting gun.
Restocked, they might make for an interesting gun.
I've worked on several.
Some of my observations.
The metal is very soft.
The wood seems pretty hard.
I've had the breech plugs out of several, and the barrels I've examined have about 3 more threads than the breech plug.
On a couple I was able to unscrew the breechplug with my fingers without a wrench.
I've proofed several barrels and not had one fail.
I was given one (percussion).
I made it into a floor lamp!
SC45-70
Some of my observations.
The metal is very soft.
The wood seems pretty hard.
I've had the breech plugs out of several, and the barrels I've examined have about 3 more threads than the breech plug.
On a couple I was able to unscrew the breechplug with my fingers without a wrench.
I've proofed several barrels and not had one fail.
I was given one (percussion).
I made it into a floor lamp!
SC45-70
As soon as I get the money together the Fusil de Chasse from MVTC will come home with me. I only live a couple hours from them so I will drive there to pick one up. I will be using it mainly for hunting with shot for small game and maybe an occational woods walk shoot. It will take a long time for me to put even a hundred loads through this gun and can't forsee it giving me any problems...and I can afford it. I'm not a $1000 gun kind of guy. They are tools for me and I don't abuse my tools. :2
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
tg said:
Now there's an idea! :hatsoff:
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
sc45-70 said:
That is a serious problem, the extra threads speak to the fact that the barrels are not firmly breached.
sc45-70 said:
That is downright sloppy work on the maker's part but then, they are imitation guns and not intended to be fired so....
sc45-70 said:
Did you proof the ones where you could "unscrew the breechplug with my fingers without a wrench"? They should let go pretty soon.
sc45-70 said:
Gotta be period correct and put a birch bark shade on it, right? :wink:
