Indian Made Muskets ?

[BEP]

These threads are interesting. Seems like, when they take a negative spin, folks really pile on. I own an India-made 3rd model Bess; my son has a !st model. Both, with some small tweaking, are reliable firearms. Yes, they are oversize but that's not uncommon in the repro world. As an example - I own two 1861 rifle-muskets: one an original Springfield, the other a modern ArmiSport. The original weighs 7.5 pounds, the ArmiSport weighs 9.5. That's well over a 25% difference. Safety - the only instance of an India Bess barrel failing that I've ever heard of was sent to a very well regarded analytical lab, where the metals tested just fine. It was determined the burst barrel was due to a partial obstruction. Now about price. I read so often here"save up and buy a so-and-so". That's just not right in some of our financial situations. Even if one was able to save enough to buy a much higher priced firearm often household circumstances just don't make it feel right to spend that much on a hobby while constantly scrimping in so many other areas. India made muskets, when purchased from someone like Loyalist, enable some of us to participate in and enjoy a fun hobby.

 

[FlinterNick]

These threads are interesting. Seems like, when they take a negative spin, folks really pile on. I own an India-made 3rd model Bess; my son has a !st model. Both, with some small tweaking, are reliable firearms. Yes, they are oversize but that's not uncommon in the repro world. As an example - I own two 1861 rifle-muskets: one an original Springfield, the other a modern ArmiSport. The original weighs 7.5 pounds, the ArmiSport weighs 9.5. That's well over a 25% difference. Safety - the only instance of an India Bess barrel failing that I've ever heard of was sent to a very well regarded analytical lab, where the metals tested just fine. It was determined the burst barrel was due to a partial obstruction. Now about price. I read so often here"save up and buy a so-and-so". That's just not right in some of our financial situations. Even if one was able to save enough to buy a much higher priced firearm often household circumstances just don't make it feel right to spend that much on a hobby while constantly scrimping in so many other areas. India made muskets, when purchased from someone like Loyalist, enable some of us to participate in and enjoy a fun hobby.

Well I think there’s a group out there that seems to think bigger is better.

LIke a heavier walled barrel is a better quality musket when in fact that’s not true at all, it just simply makes the gun heavier and could affect its accuracy.

Having a Brown Bess Barrel with the wall thickness of a Wall Gun just isn’t necessary.

Another fact to consider is how that barrel was made and what kind of steel, nobody makes high quality barrels with more steel than is necessary Because high grade steel is expensive. Which has me always wonder, if they’re using junked steel melted down to make a heavier barrel well, that’s not good either.

The problem I’ve seen with some Indian made muskets is the breeches are not done right, they’re often threaded to the right and are not pitched for what is considered acceptable thread pitching, some are tapered too.

One barrel I saw had a tapered bore which I thought was very odd, the gun was only cleaned to shoot blanks by Loyalist Arms.

A Brown Bess or Charleville barrel if tapered correctly will be light enough and offer enough security to the breech area while not make too much in the sake of sacrifice for the shooters aiming skillls.

 

[dogfood]

If you do go Loyalist Arms, you get a great product for the money, But shipping something that big across a national border is expensive. Just something to know so you don't get caught unawares.

 

[Leadball loader]

The continual discussion about Indian muzzle loaders comes down to money, ability to make necessary improvements, and personal requirements.
Those who can get the high end guns and bad mouth the low end constantly are making those with limited knowledge and income hesitate or even decide not to get into historic arms and reenacting.
This Forum has a lot of knowledge that is a treasure trove for historic arms shooters. It is not easy for the new comer to sort out the facts from personal opinions. I hope encouraging them with positive options will allow more new comers make the decision to become BP shooters.
LBL

 

[springfield art]

Indian made guns are hit or miss, I’ve seen some really nice ones an some really bad ones, there’s no real middle ground.

I’d hesitate to buy a used Indian made gun For a few reasons.

They do need to be checked out for safety, being in that the vent was correctly drilled and the breech plug is correctly set/threaded in.

Some Indian gun makes also mistakenly oversize the barrels which can lead to issues regarding the boring of the guns. Loyalist Arms does a good job on making sure they Indian guns they sell are fairly accurate and safe to use.

Few years back, the fellow who runs Veteran Arms replied to a question I had, and he said it's important to know the factory making the muskets over in India; I got a couple from him, and they seemed satisfactory. Kinda makes sense.

 

[springfield art]

Greetings. Yesterday I mentioned that my LGS had a second-hand but new in box M1860 Pietta Colt replica for sale. Went and got it today. Unfired, w/ box and 'papers', CT date code, it's a Cabela's boxed pistol. Nice quality! Was 300 plus tax, but like one of the guys said recently, the days of $200 replica pistols are over. I have the same model by ASM from the 1910's. Has a nice smooth action and beautifully finished.

 

[Celticstoneman]

The continual discussion about Indian muzzle loaders comes down to money, ability to make necessary improvements, and personal requirements.
Those who can get the high end guns and bad mouth the low end constantly are making those with limited knowledge and income hesitate or even decide not to get into historic arms and reenacting.
This Forum has a lot of knowledge that is a treasure trove for historic arms shooters. It is not easy for the new comer to sort out the facts from personal opinions. I hope encouraging them with positive options will allow more new comers make the decision to become BP shooters.
LBL

Well said and appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Boston123]

Those who can get the high end guns and bad mouth the low end constantly are making those with limited knowledge and income hesitate or even decide not to get into historic arms and reenacting.

I take.umbrage to this

You are *setting off an explosion right next to your face*. You should want the best quality you can buy, and by *deliberately* going for low-cost low-quality guns, you very well could be taking your limbs or even life in your hands.

I dont fault people for trying to save money. But you arent buying a bike or a blanket, here. You are *buying a firearm*, and even if you are just going to be blowing loads of powder out of it, the quality of the materials has an effect on whether it blows smoke and fire out of the barrel *or if the barrel ruptures because it is made of parts of.unknown and unqualifiable quality*

Just reading online can bring up stories of Indian-made.guns.being built from parts of varying quality, varying fits, and varying standards.

Are more expensive Italian and custom-ordered guns, uh....more.expensive? Yes. But with that increase in price comes increased security that the parts are actually-decent. My gun barrel.came.from a reputable company that manufactures gun barrels. I can look up their standards and contact them with questions about loading charges and tolerances. Where did the barrel.on that Indian bess come from? What is it made.from? What are its tolerances?

Like I said, I dont want to disparage people without the money for more expensive guns. But when buying things of unknown quality that have a track record for not being very good....you get what you pay for, i guess? And it is your hands and eyes, not mine.

 

[Sam squanch]

Not trying to be a snob- I have been fiscally challenged most of my life- compare a hospital bill with the cost of your India musket. You can fix a bad lock if you try hard enough. But the barrel? If you get one, please have an expert check the breeching. It could save your life. I’ve seen enough of these Indian guns that I think they make better doorstops. I’ve only seen ONE that looked HALFWAY decent!

 

[nit wit]

They are way better than the Belgium guns that we had in the 70's+80's. I had a smooth bore and you could unscrew the breech plug with your fingers. The locks were junk but they would fire most of the times. The India guns are heavier. The locks are handmade and the springs are stiff. They spark well and I have seen no issues with them blowing up. When that happens, it's usually the shooters fault not the firearm!I have a friend who shoots at the Ancient Ones Of Maine monthly GEEZER shoots. His functions well. It comes down to money, if you can't afford better buy the Frenchy, If you do I would send the lock to Jeff Miller at Flintlock Forge here in Maine. I have a Navy Arms Charleville that used to Mash flints and he fixed it. If you buy a new India gun, stay away from Middlesex Trading Co.Google that and you will se stories an less than crappy service, not the guns, the owner! I have heard nothing but good about Loyalist arms.
Best Of Luck
Nit Wit

 

[Alexei]

If you are interested in a French gun, take a look at some of Alex Efremenko's guns on this site, he is a master of the French gun. [Sorry if I spelled it wrong Alex] They are very slim and light, That is one area where the Indian guns are just not going to come close. A chunky heavy Bess is one thing, but the French guns are all about slim and light!

I actually did go to Alex's site. The gentleman is obviously a true craftsman, and is probably the polar opposite of an Indian made flintlock, certainly in quality and most likely in pricing too.

 

[toot]

The Rodney Dangerfields of muzzleloaders.....

right they DON'T GET NO RESPECT!

 

[toot]

remember that they have been making weapons before AMERICA, was even a thought? and are still making them. so they must be doing something right??

 

[Trot]

I actually did go to Alex's site. The gentleman is obviously a true craftsman, and is probably the polar opposite of an Indian made flintlock, certainly in quality and most likely in pricing too.

Definitely not within everyone's budget, but does give you an idea what they should look like.

 

[Adneg]

I’d rather pay 1500-2000 for a quality gun than 700-900 for a poor quality gun I need to dump another 500-700 into.

 

[nwtradegun]

i have checked a 58 cal. endfield carbine. looks perfectly safe. will put on layaway

 

[Stophel]

I’d rather pay 1500-2000 for a quality gun than 700-900 for a poor quality gun I need to dump another 500-700 into.

And you still won't get great quality...

 

[Stophel]

well It’s an expensive hobby

I see people saying this a lot, but honestly... Even if you go whole hog with a good gun, proper clothing, etc. , it's WAY cheaper than cars and boats and RV's and all the other stuff that people are willing to spend TONS of money on (and go way into debt for)....

 

[toot]

I’d rather pay 1500-2000 for a quality gun than 700-900 for a poor quality gun I need to dump another 500-700 into.

500 to 700, to make one shoot? talk about inflation? well that is it . just what would cost that much to make one of them a shooter? please break it down for me? thank's.

 

[old ugly]

why do we/you blame the country for making inferior products? india, china, argentina? why?

it is not the country! it is the distributor, the retailer and the consumer to blame.

the consumer says i want a cheaper product, the retailer finds a distributor to supply it, the distributor says to the manufacture ,"make me some inexpensive product to to these specifications for me to sell".
the manufacture makes the product to the distributors specifications as cheaply as they can. the distributor marks it up, makes a profit and moves the product to the retailer , marks it up, the retailer markets the product as being good, the consumer is thinking they are getting a deal but find out the product is inferior. Now the consumer sees "made in India, Made in China, Made in Argentina, or where ever. its in our brain that made in china is bad. Not nessessaly.
Anyone here remember the 1960s made in Japan? now made in Japan for the most part is good stuff.

china is a perfect example. not all stuff made in china is inferior. they make what they are asked to make to the specifications provided. it you want the product to be cheep that's what they make, if you want it good that's what they make. the retailer selling the product as equal quality is where the flim flam starts. and then there is us, the consumer, trying to pay less money for a comparable quality of product.

i buy cheep stuff too but i try to consider what use i am going to put it to.

a little off topic sorry.

i had an India made fusil a while back and had no issues with it. no safety issues , but , to me it wasn't quit rite.

ou
tom