Inlay and decoration in the pre flintlock era

[Pukka Bundook]

Guns of Henry V111 have rather heavily fluted and sculptured barrels as you know John.
These Appear to hav ebeen copied later by barrel makers in either India or Persia, though the jury is still out on that!
I have a couple to stock up at some point. This winter is hopefully over, and with it my gun making time and Still Nothing done!!

close up of one of Henry V111's barrels,

lower pic is a barrel that needs stocking up, Not Exactly what you seek, but a similar decoration.
Its cleaned up a bit now, but no new photos yet!

I do like it that you keep putting up photos and examples dear to Michael's heart TobJohn!!
Three thumbs up!

 

[TobJohn]

Guns of Henry V111 have rather heavily fluted and sculptured barrels as you know John.
These Appear to hav ebeen copied later by barrel makers in either India or Persia, though the jury is still out on that!
I have a couple to stock up at some point. This winter is hopefully over, and with it my gun making time and Still Nothing done!!

close up of one of Herny V111's barrels,

View attachment 204749View attachment 204752
lower pic is a barrel that needs stocking up, Not Exactly what you seek, but a similar decoration.
It’s cleaned up a bit now, but no new photos yet!

Good point and also a great connection with the Asian guns.

I believe brass barrel guns in Europe had them more frequently (based off of art) but that’s because they can be cast, I think…

The De Gehyn ones jumped out to me because the guns are otherwise mostly plain.

 

[TobJohn]

The cannon barrel muzzle also shows up more in art of muskets then survivors, but I think a couple of Michael’s muskets from the end of the 16th century had them, so it could be that too few muskets survived to show a clear trend.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

You are quite right about casting in the decoration and then cleaning up John.
As well, I think you are on to the right lines regarding art work that may be copied in some of the detailing; It is Very hard to know if an artist copied an artist to add to his picture, or not!

the above is one of Henry V111's barrels again.
I have a barrel with a tulip muzzle but can't see the picture off hand!

 

[TobJohn]

You are quite right about casting in the decoration and then cleaning up John.
As well, I think you are on to the right lines regarding art work that may be copied in some of the detailing; It is Very hard to know if an artist copied an artist to add to his picture, or not!

This print from Walhausen has been on my mind with that.

The dragoon musket is short with an interesting rear part of the barrel, cannon muzzle, and a fascinating and very unique trigger guard. Is it based off a real example? Artistic interpretation? It’s very frustrating we will never know because I want to know why the front of the trigger guard has that shape lol.

 

[EBrown]

View attachment 204756
This print from Walhausen has been on my mind with that.

The dragoon musket is short with an interesting rear part of the barrel, cannon muzzle, and a fascinating and very unique trigger guard. Is it based off a real example? Artistic interpretation? It’s very frustrating we will never know because I want to know why the front of the trigger guard has that shape lol.

Maybe the tigger guard was more to protect the hand of the user against sword blows and serve as sort of a catch and break system, just a wild theory.

 

[TobJohn]

Maybe the tigger guard was more to protect the hand of the user against sword blows and serve as sort of a catch and break system, just a wild theory.

That could make sense. The front part of the trigger guard (the part that is unique) is vaguely reminiscent of those blade catcher cross guards on much later bayonets. Despite the bottom illustration showing the gun being shot on horseback, almost every source I have seen makes the claim that is wildly impractical to shoot a matchlock like this on horseback.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

They should never give a licence to an artist John!

 

[TobJohn]

They should never give a licence to an artist John!

Walhausen did write the literal book on tactics at the time, so there may be a practical explanation. I have a period translated copy open on my computer for the past week, so I should probably stop being lazy and see what this image is all about, and confirm if it’s a print maker gone rogue or something practical lol.

There is another picture from his works (I will try to find it in a bit) that shows a cuirassier with his pistols laid out and they are a perfect match with the wheellocks Graz has that correspond to the 1610s-1640s. Another factor to why this dragoon musket is making me so curious.

 

[TobJohn]

It looks like I was thinking of a different print and not one included in Wallhausen's manual. These wheellocks are slightly stylized, but do look close to the real thing. The double hump from the ramrod channel to the wheel is not something I have seen much of.

Bonus dragoon print.

 

[TobJohn]

Charcoal bluing lasts longer than fire bluing as well John.
Mind, I did this one maybe 25 years ago and it's still blue.
Small parts can be blued by heating and dipping in linseed oil, then repeating. That kind of blue lasts a Long time . It's baked right into the metal.

I looked in the usual place and found what I believe to be a fire blued wheellock lock. You participated in the original thread, so I assume you are already aware of this example. Its a self spanning breechloader, so peak renaissance tacticool.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes, This piece I find stunning John!

 

[Rudyard]

Dear John Your guns got a dragon on its barrel its a matchlock thing cant resist them could they (,,no more can I ). Re fireing M lock from a horse WE know its not possible . But THEY didnt know that so did it . Out east & evidently in 17c Europe anyway its a bit like Damascus barrels one mass of beautiful welds rarely attempted today . But in Victorian England they just made them routinely in many grades. You want lost arts ?. I think lost wax was regarded as new but the natives of old Benin in West Africa did them from at least the 17c to today .as in "Beware of the evil bight of Benin, " Where few come out though many go in " ( I did both & got away with it in 1965 But it had a good go at me )
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

Dear John Your guns got a dragon on its barrel its a matchlock thing cant resist them could they (,,no more can I ). Re fireing M lock from a horse WE know its not possible . But THEY didnt know that so did it . Out east & evidently in 17c Europe anyway its a bit like Damascus barrels one mass of beautiful welds rarely attempted today . But in Victorian England they just made them routinely in many grades. You want lost arts ?. I think lost wax was regarded as new but the natives of old Benin in West Africa did them from at least the 17c to today .as in "Beware of the evil bight of Benin, " Where few come out though many go in " ( I did both & got away with it in 1965 But it had a good go at me )
Regards Rudyard

We just need to find someone with 100 friends with 100 horses. Give them 200 wheellock pistols and 100 matchlock muskets and then we can have them test the caracole and how possible shooting a matchlock from horseback is. How hard could it be???

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Like Rudyard inferred John,
In the east it was done all the time amongst native troops or irregulars.
At a gallop they could shoot and hit small objects with their long torador type guns.
These had no pan cover quite often, the prime being a meal that was pressed into place and stayed put.
Of course, in Northern India, when it was dry it was dry, and when it was wet no-one went on campaign.

 

[TobJohn]

Like Rudyard inferred John,
In the east it was done all the time amongst native troops or irregulars.
At a gallop they could shoot and hit small objects with their long torador type guns.
These had no pan cover quite often, the prime being a meal that was pressed into place and stayed put.
Of course, in Northern India, when it was dry it was dry, and when it was wet no-one went on campaign.

That’s a good point. It’s probably one of those things western historians repeat because a previous one had said it and no one actually bothered to try or find non European examples.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Like how many times have we read John, that in windy weather the match would be blown out?!!
I have seen that guff written in a good few books!
Matches aren't birthday candles..

 

[TobJohn]

Different historians claim matchlocks are reliable or unreliable with roughly equal frequency. One of the many problems with researching without having practical experience.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

yep.
Armchair theorists John.

 

[Rudyard]

I once on a Derbyshire farm fired and reloaded a Brown Bess off a horse , first little squibs in the pan then upped to a full charge gradually . Just an old Moke trecking horse couldn't be bothered to run . Used to girls, seen it all I expect . Something out of Joliffe
. Of course there are horses & horses , most I expect wouldn't take too kindly to getting their ears shot off . I did ride two horses at full gallop in Aus & Indonesia its exhilarating & doesn't hurt .its the' jig jog trot 'stuff that pounds you !I don't recall either had saddles it was done for a lark . ' New chum' & all that (On Cattle Station in WA ) I steered the Aus one under a tree grabbed a branch & let the horse go .Cant recall the Timor one but no bones broken . Riding even a quiet horse level is fine , up hill ,you got its main but down hill prepare to slide off the whole concern . Thats me' horsed out' though I once had to burry one .
Regards Rudyard