Intermediate kits?

[mahkagari]

All these Traditions et al. kits are pretty basic. Good practice on bluing and sanding, but need something to really practice inletting while I plan for my Hawken build. Everyone is saying Hawken's are advanced, what are intermediate? Saw a reference to TVM (Tennessee Valley Muzzleloader?). What else?

 

[Micah Clark]

Not sure that TVM would be in the middle between a factory kit and semi custom kit ... It's probably a lot closer to the Hawken you want ... I think the one thing that makes it a step harder than other TVM Pecatonica TOW Chsmbers etc is the hooked breech barrel ... But I'm certainly not an expert.

There is a guy building southern rifle kits using one of those computerized CMC ?? Machines that looks like it may be in between a Traditions kit and a custom kit but his company name escapes me.

 

[garra]

I believe you are thinking about these kits.
http://www.jimkibler.net/kit-gun.html

 

[galamb]

One of the very first rifles I ever built was a Hawken - and it was built from a blank, so didn't even have the 80% inlet or general shaping provided by a builders kit.

Now I will say something that may draw some criticism.

A Hawken is not are more "difficult" to built than anything else, all else being equal. The fitting of the lock, tang, pipes, butt plate etc etc are "procedures" that are the same regardless of the design.

So calling a Hawken (kit) advanced and a Barn gun beginner and maybe something else intermediate is a bit misleading.

Is a Hawken a little more "intricate" if you are trying to achieve something representative of an original - yes. But so is an early Lancaster if you are trying to get the carving correct.

For me "advanced" just isn't the correct term. Does having to spend more time, more care, more measuring, more subtle nuances equate to "advanced"??

So if your thinking "advanced" means you need an "extra level" of skill set, then I personally would say that is not the case.

I do agree after you have built a couple of rifles that are "less challenging" (plain stock, straight barrel perhaps, no carving etc) that the "confidence" you gain will make a more intricate rifle "easier" to build, because you won't be learning on the fly.

But if you can build a "beginner" rifle as your first, you can also build an "advanced" rifle as your first. Just in one case you might be using it for Bambi "this season", the other may have to wait until "next season".

 

[Micah Clark]

I believe you are thinking about these kits.
http://www.jimkibler.net/kit-gun.html

Yep !! That's it.

 

[Ames]

I like your take on it. Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
I also think some of the practice builds end up as barn guns because, well, you know, I can build a better one next time.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hawken rifles are often considered advanced due to the subtleties of their architecture. You can put one together that looks like a Hawken with all the Hawken parts. However often the blending of the lines of the cheek piece to the wrist can be difficult to get right. Perhaps the least obvious detail is the tapering of the lock panel. Most flintlock panels follow the taper of the rifle barrel. A Hawken lock panel will taper the other way, toward the butt. This places the percussion hammer in better alignment with the nipple in the snail. I had my hammer all twisted to properly strike the nipple. A Hawken rifle isn't different because it uses essentially the same parts as any other traditional percussion muzzleloading rifle. Its different because the rifle has so many subtle aspects to its architecture. The parts come together to make a simple yet beautiful rifle.

Intermediate kits would start with a precarved stock with the barrel inlet and metal mill work done. Then whats left is the inletting of the parts, alignment of the lock, triggers, buttplate and possibly patchbox. Finally its time to finish the browning, bluing or patina of the metal parts and final finish of the stock.

Good luck on your projects.

 

[Pete G]

One of the reasons the Hawken is considered "advanced" is the work involved attaching the rib and pipes. Incidentally, it seems that most ribs were attached with riveted studs rather than screws.

 

[don hepler]

One of Don Stith's kits might be what you want.

However, the amount of work might be overwhelming.
Others have stated how complex some of the work can be. If someone were to offer a kit, like the Kibler, in a Hawken, they would probably have a hard time keeping up with their orders.

I'm looking for an easier answer, to building one, myself.

The Kibler kits look like a great way to go.

 

[mahkagari]

The Kibler kits look like a great way to go.

They're definitely very nice, but don't look any more difficult than a Traditions kit. Just better quality and 2-3 times the price.

 

[Black Hand]

It seems these distinctions are insignificant - There are kits that take more time and kits that take less time. The steps needed are not difficult and everyone with even minimal skills could accomplish them provided they take the time necessary to do them correctly. The only differences are the builder's level of experience, the tools available and ones ability to fix mistakes....

 

[Chevythunderman]

The ability to fix your mistakes reminds me of what I was always told as a beginner in carpentry. "The difference between a good carpenter and a great carpenter is: one is a lot better at fixing his mistakes"!


I agree with everyone here there is nothing any harder about a hawken than a long rifle. If you can build a long rifle a hawken to me is simpler. I have built both from blanks and to me the hawken is an easier build. Not as much wood to keep straight and true. Yea theres more metal work on a hawken but its not hard work. If your going to build a hawken get yourself a good set of blue prints, they can be obtained very reasonably from tow and other distributors. Just be sure to look often and measure often. And to take your time!

 

[Swamp Rat]

I think there is more to it than the kits themselves yes some are cut better but it's the Toolbench, Tools , lighting, vise, grinder and the ability to sharpen tools and make tools that really makes the difference in how hard a build is IMO.

 

[Black Hand]

I think there is more to it than the kits themselves yes some are cut better but it's the Toolbench, Tools , lighting, vise, grinder and the ability to sharpen tools and make tools that really makes the difference in how hard a build is IMO.

As I said...

The only differences are the builder's level of experience, the tools available and ones ability to fix mistakes....

 

[mahkagari]

It seems these distinctions are insignificant - There are kits that take more time and kits that take less time. The steps needed are not difficult and everyone with even minimal skills could accomplish them provided they take the time necessary to do them correctly. The only differences are the builder's level of experience, the tools available and ones ability to fix mistakes....

Any kits that are on the cheap side and yield opportunity to learn to fix/avoid mistakes?

 

[Black Hand]

The questions are: Do you want to challenge yourself or do you want to "snap" something together that takes little more work than driving a few screws, sanding, staining and finishing

Depending on the cost and kit, you will have more or less work to accomplish, though some gun types are less detailed that others. I started with a tradegun from NSW - I still carry it. I can see ALL the mistakes I made, but I learned more during this first build by making mistakes than I could learn assembling a hundred lesser kits. And all because it was a challenge and I had to pay attention.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten. Your skills will never improve because there are no challenges...

 

[mahkagari]

The questions are: Do you want to challenge yourself or do you want to "snap" something together that takes little more work than driving a few screws, sanding, staining and finishing

The former without spending a fortune.

I started with a tradegun from NSW - I still carry it.

Thanks, that's the kind of experience I'm looking for.

I can see ALL the mistakes I made, but I learned more during this first build by making mistakes than I could learn assembling a hundred lesser kits. And all because it was a challenge and I had to pay attention.

Yep, this. I'd like to work through that before really pouring my heart into replicating my grandfather's without cutting my teeth on expensive parts.

 

[Black Hand]

Then expect to spend approximately $800-1200 on a quality kit...

 

[mahkagari]

Then expect to spend approximately $800-1200 on a quality kit...

Or...how about $3-400 on a poor quality kit that I can beat up for practice....?

Or how about this, what are some nifty mods to make to Traditions-type kits to practice skills?

 

[Black Hand]

Then we are back to:

Do you want to challenge yourself or do you want to "snap" something together that takes little more work than driving a few screws, sanding, staining and finishing...