Intermittent timing issue on 1860

[Columbus]

I have a Pietta 1860 Army, date code BC that with an intermittent timing issue. When the hammer is released by hand from the full cock position, now and then the arm on the bolt does not drop off the cam. Then when you pull the hammer to the half cock position the bolt does not retract and the cylinder is still locked up. I've had it completely apart three times today and it rarely does it when the gun is full assembled (dry firing) but will do it every time with the cylinder removed. All the parts are clean, oiled and no evidence of debris in the works. Any ideas?

 

[bang]

Does it do it when you fire it?

 

[TDM]

Have you checked to see if the tangs on the trigger spring are indexed properly on the trigger and bolt?

 

[45D]

Columbus, your problem is that the bolt stop "shelf" is allowing the bolt to come through the frame higher without the cylinder. That means the bolt arms are too low to reset on the cam. With the cylinder installed, it stops the bolt at a shorter height and reset can happen.
When the cyl is out, push the bolt down and you'll hear a click (reset) and then it will move down when you go to half cock.

Mike

 

[Columbus]

Columbus, your problem is that the bolt stop "shelf" is allowing the bolt to come through the frame higher without the cylinder. That means the bolt arms are too low to reset on the cam. With the cylinder installed, it stops the bolt at a shorter height and reset can happen.
When the cyl is out, push the bolt down and you'll hear a click (reset) and then it will move down when you go to half cock.

Mike

Exactly - how do I fix it?

 

[45D]

Lol!!! Well, a new bolt . . . but, Eddie Janis of Peacemaker Specialists used to grind off the stop self so you would get full bolt / locking notch engagement. He would explain the "push the bolt down with the cyl off" thing. So, you could just pretend he worked on yours and not worry about it.

Your revolver functions normally with the cylinder in, correct?

Mike

 

[goksdron]

A lighter bolt spring or loosen the bolt spring retainer screw a quarter turn.

 

[45D]

A lighter bolt spring or loosen the bolt spring retainer screw a quarter turn.

Nope, neither one. ( not even a half turn or an eighth turn)
I explained it as well as can be explained and the op agreed . . . and asked how to fix it. A new bolt or what to do when the cylinder is not installed. Pretty straight forward. As long as it functions and times correctly with cylinder installed, there's no real problem.

Mike

 

[Stantheman86]

If it ain't broke don't break it further by trying to "fix" it It probably locks up great with that extra litttle bit of bolt popping up

I have a Pietta that has a bolt that is dropping right before the leade, it's made a little ding in the cylinder but it works just fine, I thought about trying to clean up the bolt but it works perfectly fine so I just shoot it. With my luck I'd ruin the bolt and make the lockup sloppy on an otherwise tight and functional gun by trying to fix a non existent problem. If I cock the gun slowly you can kind of hear the "crunch" as the bolt just hits the tip of the leade but if I cock it like a man like it's supposed to be used or like CAS shooters cock them, it works just fine.

Like how people complain about old S&W revolvers not "carrying up" right if they cock them in super slow motion like some dude on YouTube showed them to "test" for timing......, but a normal trigger pull or hammer cocking effort and they carry up perfectly. A lot of them left the factory like that to build in some "slop" so they can function dirty. People spend $$ and time having this "fixed" when the gun will probably work perfectly for 100 more years when used as designed.

I learned this from my gun shop owner years ago , I had an old Smith and I'm like , the cylinder stops just short of lockup when I put my finger on the cylinder , point it up into the air and cock it very slowly.....he's like I don't know what kind of BS that is , just put rounds in it and pull the trigger like a man . it left the factory like that before I was born and it will work long after you're dead, just shoot it

 

[M. De Land]

If it ain't broke don't break it further by trying to "fix" it It probably locks up great with that extra litttle bit of bolt popping up

I have a Pietta that has a bolt that is dropping right before the leade, it's made a little ding in the cylinder but it works just fine, I thought about trying to clean up the bolt but it works perfectly fine so I just shoot it. With my luck I'd ruin the bolt and make the lockup sloppy on an otherwise tight and functional gun by trying to fix a non existent problem. If I cock the gun slowly you can kind of hear the "crunch" as the bolt just hits the tip of the leade but if I cock it like a man like it's supposed to be used or like CAS shooters cock them, it works just fine.

Like how people complain about old S&W revolvers not "carrying up" right if they cock them in super slow motion like some dude on YouTube showed them to "test" for timing......, but a normal trigger pull or hammer cocking effort and they carry up perfectly. A lot of them left the factory like that to build in some "slop" so they can function dirty. People spend $$ and time having this "fixed" when the gun will probably work perfectly for 100 more years when used as designed.

I learned this from my gun shop owner years ago , I had an old Smith and I'm like , the cylinder stops just short of lockup when I put my finger on the cylinder , point it up into the air and cock it very slowly.....he's like I don't know what kind of BS that is , just put rounds in it and pull the trigger like a man . it left the factory like that before I was born and it will work long after you're dead, just shoot it

That is cylinder inertia that is carrying it to lock up when the hand is short or if some numchuck decided to file on the ratchet star and got it bass ackwards. The hand should carry to lock up in slow motion in either single or double action with a thumb lightly dragging on the cylinder if correct.

 

[Stantheman86]

That is cylinder inertia that is carrying it to lock up when the hand is short or if some numchuck decided to file on the ratchet star and got it bass ackwards. The hand should carry to lock up in slow motion in either single or double action with a thumb lightly dragging on the cylinder if correct.

It "should " but many older and newer S&Ws left the factory with slow carry up. No Ruger I own has late carry up but many of my Smith's do. They work fine under normal use. Older wartime Smiths apparently were under timed on purpose so the hand wouldn't bind when the guns were filthy

Also , a common CAS modification is to alter the timing of a Vaquero so it carries up perfectly with fast , hard cocking but not in slow, deliberate cocking to I assume help with cylinder stops being battered . What is called, Short Stroking?

 

[45D]

It "should " but many older and newer S&Ws left the factory with slow carry up. No Ruger I own has late carry up but many of my Smith's do. They work fine under normal use. Older wartime Smiths apparently were under timed on purpose so the hand wouldn't bind when the guns were filthy

Also , a common CAS modification is to alter the timing of a Vaquero so it carries up perfectly with fast , hard cocking but not in slow, deliberate cocking to I assume help with cylinder stops being battered . What is called, Short Stroking?

Short stroked means shorter hammer travel.
Incomplete carry up with a large primer cartridge can allow firing " out of battery". A short hand is "poor" tuning for trying to allow fast cycling. Doing a correct setup which includes an action stop and a bolt block is how you make a "speed gun". All mine have full carry up dragging a finger (it's dangerous if not) but they are "speed guns" if that's what you need. (even ROA"s need this)

Mike