Investarms 50 Cal Hawken

[Rhino6]

Going to make another run to the range today, got the front sight tightened, going out to 50 yds.

Reducing the charge to 50gr. and see how it shoots as was suggested.

Also found 5 tins of these in a box of MZ loader tools and other I bought along with a couple of powder horns, flasks, and various other tools. Sold off what I didn't need and made a few bucks. I am familiar with RWS, I presume these are of good quality. Also included 50 cal ammo can, a box of Hornady .50 ball, pound of Pyrodex RS, nipple tools, speed loaders, ball starters, etc...Bought it all at a pawnshop for $40.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I am hoping that that can of Pyrodex is Unopened when you bougth it. Have fun.

 

[Rhino6]

Yes, sealed, I have used it.

I apparently guessed the location of the front sight pretty well, still going to same point of impact.

Having a problem with the caps not going off the first time. Cleaned the nipple off thinking that the cap was not seating all the way and had better luck after that. The nipple is stainless steel and it looks like it may be eroding pretty bad near the end. Looks almost like cracks.
Had several occasions where the cap disappeared after the shot, gone. My next rookie question is what shape should the cap be in after firing?
I ordered 2 nipples from TOW, and I will not be shooting this one until the new ones get here.

When I was cleaning the rifle at home, I removed the lock, probably the first time it had been out since the gun was new. Caked on grease of some sort, very hard, made me wonder if my ignition problem was a light hit with that stuff in there. Cleaned it out with brake cleaner and re-lubed.

Today I cleaned after each shot, noticed that it was a lot easier to load. Used Traditions Easy Clean Solvent to lightly wet the first patch, used both sides, two dry patches both sides, last was a patch with a little Bore Butter. The first patch I stopped about an inch or so before the bottom on the front side and all the way down on the opposite side. Think this is too much cleaning? Interested in comments. Seemed to work out for me.

Moved out to 50 yards and shooting about 3 inch pattern. Note I said pattern not group. I am reminded that my 64 year old eyes may be a big contributor.

 

[lorren68]

where in GA are you located?

 

[Rhino6]

Walton County, East of Atlanta...

 

[paulvallandigham]

Replace the nipple. The gas should not flatten the cap nor push the hammer back so much that the cap flies off the nipple.

What the spent cap will look like with a good, NEW nipple depends a lot on the diameter of the Skirt around the nose of the hammer, and the size of the notch( Hair-lip wedge) cut into the skirt at the front of the hammer. The Notch allows the cap to break, and expand sufficiently so that the cap is easily removed when the hammer is drawn back to half-cock after firing the gun. But, you don't want the cap flying off.

I have removed bits of cap from my forearm, and from my cheek. I don't want to " volunteer" for any more.

A properly sized NEW nipple will not allow that much gas to flow back up the nipple to push the hammer back enough.

No, you aren't cleaning the barrel too much. That is pretty much the routine that I follow, only I begin by using a slightly dampened cleaning patch( with spit wiped off my tongue) to clean the nipple, and the area on the barrel around the nipple, before running the patch down the barrel to pull out the residue. I stop an inch before the breech, then pull it out. I either flip the patch, or if its too dirty, I use a second patch to run down all the way to the breech to pull out all the residue. Then I run a patch or two to dry the moisture out of the barrel that my spit put down there. How many depends on what the patches look like when the comes out of the barrel.

ALways read your patches- both those you fire, and your cleaning patches. They tell you information on how your gun is working in different kinds of weather and relative humidity. As long as you know what condition you want to see, and feel, your patches achieve when you finish cleaning, those patches will tell you if you need to redo something, or run more patches down the barrel.

 

[Rhino6]

I remembered the patch reference from a prior post.

Found the fired patches about 20 feet in front of me, note a 10+ wind from 12 o'clock. The cleaning patches with yellow tint were the last, applied bore butter and one more to clear the excess.

The upper left fired patch is, I believe from the 50 grain load, and the last two from 70 gr. I am developing a hunting load and it seemed to prefer the 70gr., will do more experimenting after I replace the nipple.

Too much detail? Comes from the fact that I am now retired with more time on my hands and from my days in highpower rifle competition, load development, etc... I consider this rifle a challenge due to the bore condition and the fact that this rifle was obviously not well maintained.

 

[BrownBear]

I bet you can improve the pattern into groups simply with a change in patches, probably thicker. The recovered patches are looking pretty tough. The frayed edges aren't a big deal, but all those holes and tears around the radius of the ball spell accuracy problems.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree with your assessment, Brown Bear. Those tears along the edges of the RB indicate that the fabric is too thin for that powder charge, and lube used.

The Fraying on the edges appears on all spent patches, and is caused by the fabric being WHIPPED BACK off the ball, WHILE SPINNING at a very high rotational speed, as the PRB leaves the muzzle and hits the air. Even with loads that don't push a ball out the muzzle at supersonic speeds, that "whipping" action to the fabric will fray those edges- as the speed of movement of the edge of the fabric may actually exceed the speed of sound while the ball is moving subsonic.

This is how you can make a piece of rope "Crack" by "whipping" the end of it. I did this as a kid, playing Zorro, back in the 50s, using cotton clothesline rope. If you whipped that rope often enough the end of the rope frayed, and the fraying unraveled the rope more with each succeeding "whip". The longer the frayed end, the easier it was to generate that "crack", and the louder the crack was.

 

[Rhino6]

Sounds right, supplies around here are hard to find so I will probably make my own. How about pillow ticking, are they what I am looking for?

Should I cut them in oversize squares and trim them at the muzzle? I haven't seen much in my reading on the subject.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Pillow ticking tends to be thinner in thickness, than Mattress ticking. Take your micrometer, or Caliper with you to buy your fabric. If the ticking isn't the correct size, try muslin, linen( expensive)denim, or pocket drill. You are looking for a fabric with lots of threads per inch( tpi) and a tight weave. Some denim is too loose a weave to give good results, so use your better judgment.

 

[nw_hunter]

I think you are also using too heavy a powder charge in that gun. 70 grains of RS is the equivalent to about 90 grains of Goex FFFg powder.
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Paul! I thought 70 grains of RS would be equivalent to about 60 grains of 3f.Pyro P is the sub. for 3F Goex.RS is the same as 2F. If he will be using the gun to primarily hunt with, I wouldn't think 70 grains of Rs would be to heavy a load.I would start with 60 grains of RS and work up for a hunting load.

 

[BrownBear]

I thought 70 grains of RS would be equivalent to about 60 grains of 3f.Pyro P is the sub. for 3F Goex.RS is the same as 2F.

Ayup. No new math for me! :rotf:

 

[nmdd]

According to the manual that comes with the Investarm's 50 cal. Hawken, the maximum safe load is 70gr fff and 90gr of ff. Also states use blackpowder only.....Alvin

 

[cowpoke1955]

Paul,
To contain those pieces of exploding caps, have you thought about a flash cup: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7417 ? I put one on my .54 GPR years ago, because some caps were starting to scourch the wood in the nipple area. Just a thought :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

"I think you are also using too heavy a powder charge in that gun. 70 grains of RS is the equivalent to about 90 grains of Goex FFFg powder."

I took that information straight out of a Hodgdon Reloading manual Volume to volume Comparison Chart. [ Hdogdon Data Manual Number Twenty Three, 1977, .269.] The chart shows 90 grains of BP = 72 grains of Pyrodex. The chart does not differentiate between "RS" and " P" powders, however. I am frustrated by that fact, and other short-comings in the published data.

Basically, the weight of pyrodex is 20% less than a similar volume of Black powder. OR, as some people like to say, " Pyrodex is 'fluffier' than Black Powder", but the same volume of Pyrodex- not weight-- produces similar velocities. :hatsoff:

 

[hrchotaw]

Now I'm really mixed up!If they are measured by volume why wouldn't 70 grains of pyrodex P be the same as 70 grains of the real stuff. Maybe these posts just have me mixed up which is nothing unusual for me

 

[Rhino6]

Wow...When I get the new nipples, think I will reduce the charge to 60 and see how it shoots. :hmm:

Still looking for thicker patches also. I will get all this worked out before deer season... :idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

Now I'm really mixed up!If they are measured by volume why wouldn't 70 grains of pyrodex P be the same as 70 grains of the real stuff. Maybe these posts just have me mixed up which is nothing unusual for me

You're not mixed. They're both measured by volume for use in muzzleloaders and Pyrodex RS is measure-for-measure a direct sub for real 2f. Actual weights are so irrelevant, they don't need to be mentioned. Or confused.

 

[Zonie]

Yes, Pyrodex is meant to be measured by volume only, using the same amount as one would use if they were measuring black powder.

No. Pyrodex is close but not exactly equal to real black powder in its power.

If one looks at the breech pressures and velocities that Pyrodex makes as compared to an equal load of black powder they will see that the pressures and the resultant velocities are slightly higher.

Just as important, the heat created is a little bit higher.

777 which is also designed to be measured only by volume is more powerful and Hodgdon recommends reducing the load (volume) by about 20 percent.
Even with this reduction because 777 burns with a hotter flame it often will burn patches which would be unburned if real black powder had been used.