Is that a Hawken?
- Thread starter Dale Lilly
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Those two places are also in my plans … if this current mess subsides
firestick
40 Cal
WOWZERS! that is one sharp looking rifle Josephg!!! More details PLEASE!
That's an unusual trigger guard for a Hawken, which is intended as an observation rather than criticism. It looks good on that rifle, and I like it.
Your rifle is a beauty, and you got it up in the right weight range, too!
Who built it? He did a very good job. I'm sure all of us would like more details... Caliber, barrel dimensions, rate of twist. I would also like to know what kind of patent breech was used, as I don't recognize that snail. Maybe you could post another photo with a close-up view of the lock, triggers, and breech area?
In any event, I would like to thank you for showing us your new rifle. It is gorgeous!
Notchy Bob
Joseph,
My take on this thread is that it started as a consideration of Hawken variants. I think more information about your new rifle, which is atypical in some subtle ways, would fit right in. These discussions tend to ramble a bit anyway, usually because of garrulous old
As an alternative, a new thread in the "Percussion Rifles" section would also be welcomed. Some people tire of wading into multi-page threads, and a new topic might encourage some new participants.
I'm sure either option would be fine. I would enjoy reading the story about your new rifle, and I'll bet a lot of the other forum members would, too. Your rifle is a beautiful piece.
More photos would be great, too. I would like to see a view of the top side of the breech area, showing your peep sight and the tang, and a view of the underside of the same area, in addition to a close-up or detail shot showing the lock, triggers, snail, and the whole triggerguard.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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Okay, I'll spill the beans here.
About 1974 decided I had to have a custom Hawken. Then life started, wife kids work Jeeps.... About 1982 found a Golden Age Arms blank at a gun shop at Fort Collins CO. Then in the eighties got a set of triggers. I knew they would work for a Hawken rifle as I had studied the Hawken perty thorough. I had read all I could find on Hawken rifles. Mid nineties got a .58 Green Mountain Barrel from Ted Fellows at a gun show. Early 2Ks picked up a 1750s style trigger guard like one in the Golden Age Arms catalog. Now the patent breech I had made for a Edwards Anschutz project back in the mid eighties and it fit the GM barrel. The lock is a L&R picked up somewhere along the way.
Couple years ago when bar hopping at Challis ID noticed a little BP gun shop on the main drag. Took me a while to get the owner cornered. Robert Bradley agreed to put my parts together and finish it up. Robert did a good job. Open sights are a bugger for me to see so the Anschutz tang worked out perfect. I sorta like having something out of the ordinary. Okay, I'm a little slow, but life gets in the way, a lot.
Twist should be seventy.
About 1974 decided I had to have a custom Hawken. Then life started, wife kids work Jeeps.... About 1982 found a Golden Age Arms blank at a gun shop at Fort Collins CO. Then in the eighties got a set of triggers. I knew they would work for a Hawken rifle as I had studied the Hawken perty thorough. I had read all I could find on Hawken rifles. Mid nineties got a .58 Green Mountain Barrel from Ted Fellows at a gun show. Early 2Ks picked up a 1750s style trigger guard like one in the Golden Age Arms catalog. Now the patent breech I had made for a Edwards Anschutz project back in the mid eighties and it fit the GM barrel. The lock is a L&R picked up somewhere along the way.
Couple years ago when bar hopping at Challis ID noticed a little BP gun shop on the main drag. Took me a while to get the owner cornered. Robert Bradley agreed to put my parts together and finish it up. Robert did a good job. Open sights are a bugger for me to see so the Anschutz tang worked out perfect. I sorta like having something out of the ordinary. Okay, I'm a little slow, but life gets in the way, a lot.
Twist should be seventy.
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Thanks for the additional pictures, and for the story! "Something out of the ordinary," indeed!
Robert Bradley's workmanship is impressive. I had never heard of him before, but with skills like that, he deserves wider recognition.
Your rifle is a beauty, and it comes with a great story. It looks like a real game-getter, too!
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
Robert Bradley's workmanship is impressive. I had never heard of him before, but with skills like that, he deserves wider recognition.
Your rifle is a beauty, and it comes with a great story. It looks like a real game-getter, too!
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
firestick
40 Cal
Thinking back, I think it was the Hawken rifle that was in the Cletus Klein collection auction a couple years back that finally made me take action on my Hawken parts pile. Klein had a rifle at auction that I had lusted for for twenty years. Noticed the Hawken when perusing the lots. The story behind that Hawken is interesting also.
I'm perty new here so if the video has already been posted, please forgive me.
I'm perty new here so if the video has already been posted, please forgive me.
plmeek
40 Cal.
Josephg,
Thanks for the link to the video.
This rifle did sale at an auction on March 23, 2019 for $56,350 (Including Buyer's Premium). It was also featured in a Bob Woodfill article published in October, 2020 issue of Muzzle Blasts.
In the article, Woodfill called it a Gemmer made "S. Hawken" rifle. It's pretty well accepted that J. P. Gemmer did use the S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS stamp on rifles he built after he gained full control of the Hawken business, but I don't know how a person can tell if a mountain rifle marked "S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS" was made by Gemmer or made by Sam himself. Woodfill doesn't fully explain the distinction to my satisfaction.
The rifle from Cletus Klein Collection that sold on 3-23-20.
The Cody Firearms Museum has a similar rifle in their collection that was formerly owned by Dr. Kenneth Leonard and donated by William B. Ruger, Sr. and Sturm, Ruger and Company.
These two rifle are the only known Hawken rifles that were made with a cap box.
Thanks for the link to the video.
This rifle did sale at an auction on March 23, 2019 for $56,350 (Including Buyer's Premium). It was also featured in a Bob Woodfill article published in October, 2020 issue of Muzzle Blasts.
In the article, Woodfill called it a Gemmer made "S. Hawken" rifle. It's pretty well accepted that J. P. Gemmer did use the S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS stamp on rifles he built after he gained full control of the Hawken business, but I don't know how a person can tell if a mountain rifle marked "S. HAWKEN, ST. LOUIS" was made by Gemmer or made by Sam himself. Woodfill doesn't fully explain the distinction to my satisfaction.
The rifle from Cletus Klein Collection that sold on 3-23-20.
The Cody Firearms Museum has a similar rifle in their collection that was formerly owned by Dr. Kenneth Leonard and donated by William B. Ruger, Sr. and Sturm, Ruger and Company.
These two rifle are the only known Hawken rifles that were made with a cap box.
I am acquainted with a builder who made 'exact' replicas of Hawkens. One of these he sold and eventually it ended up being sold at auction by the buyers widow. The auction house wanted it authenticated and called John Baird to study it. Baird did 'authenticate' it as a genuine Hawken. An article, written by Baird, with photos was published in American Rifleman magazine about the rifle. The original builder saw the article and wrote to AR that he, in fact, built it about 12 years earlier. This, of course, destroyed Baird's reputation as an expert on Hawkens. BTW, the barrel has an original Hawken stamp on it with the famous crooked 'S'. Many of the Hawken shop tools, including several stamps, were sold at auction at one time. That is where the builder bought his. No expert at all here. But, I do believe almost every previous post here is accurate and only add to the mystique of the Hawken.
plmeek
40 Cal.
No one is infallible. John Baird had his faults and made mistakes as is the case with us all.
Our culture, on the other hand, doesn't seem to recognize this fact, and we often too readily condemn someone when they make an honest mistake.
Baird dedicated Chapter 16 in his second book, Fifteen Years In The Hawken Lode, to "Hawken Replicas, Or Fake Hawkens?" He described an individual he knew that was capable of building exact replicas like your acquaintance which could fool the best experts. He described a rifle this individual had made and prophetically wrote what might happen to that rifle.
Our culture, on the other hand, doesn't seem to recognize this fact, and we often too readily condemn someone when they make an honest mistake.
Baird dedicated Chapter 16 in his second book, Fifteen Years In The Hawken Lode, to "Hawken Replicas, Or Fake Hawkens?" He described an individual he knew that was capable of building exact replicas like your acquaintance which could fool the best experts. He described a rifle this individual had made and prophetically wrote what might happen to that rifle.
Baird said:
Darn nice Hawken replica. However, comb, lower and fore-end lines look dead straight where there should be very slight curves & swells. Odd angles of the photos accentuate these, and make it hard to see a lot of other detail.
Overall very nice job!
Thank you for figuring out how to post this video. I knew Cletus pretty well, and have held this rifle in my own two (gloved) hands. He also told me the story repeated in the video of how he acquired it and its hunting history. He had 9 huge safes with outstanding amazing, mostly antique, guns of all sorts. This Hawken is still the one gun I would choose to own if I could possess only ONE gun.
Us Americans can mangle words. I read that Hawken was originally Hochen, they were German. Hawken is obviously English.
plmeek
40 Cal.
We do mangle words. And we are always inventing new words.
Many immigrants came to America for new opportunities and freedoms and to escape economic and political constraints in their old country. Many chose to change their name, or at least, the spelling of it, as part of the process of establishing a new life. It was not necessarily a requirement or mandatory.
Literacy was not high through most of our country's history, and spelling was often "free form".
Shumway/Hartzler write in Arms Makers of Maryland:
The Hawken family tradition has it that their ancestors came to America from Switzerland in 1775.
I think I saw in one o Baird's books that one of the other brothers of Sam and Jake spelled his name Hawkin. I know that my family changed the spelling of our name around the start of the 20th century.
Just when you guys thought this thread was dead and buried... Here is another rifle for your consideration. Check this one out: "An Original Hawken"
The link will take you to a four-page article in PDF format posted by the Iowa Blackpowder Federation. It is an in-depth consideration of an original S. Hawken rifle, evidently owned by one of the IBPF members. I had seen this article before, but was reminded of it today while researching some trifling bit of Hawken arcana. The rifle is a half-stock with a typical Hawken-style nosecap and entry pipe, which appears to be secured with one pin. The article's author said, "This rifle I believe was marked S Hawken which means it was made after 1842 and before 1862."
I'm no expert, but it has a combination of features that I found unusual. It has an iron capbox, a "Tennessee" style cheekpiece, a "flat to wrist" triggerguard rail, and a solid patent breech, rather than a hooked breech, but it is a half-stock. The barrel was said to have been shortened at some point. The entry pipe is said to be a casting, yet the buttplate was made from two pieces brazed together... Again, I'm not an expert, but this sounds like a mix of earlier and later type parts and styling. I'm wondering if it might have originally been a fullstock which was cut back and half-stocked at some point. I'm not saying I think this is the case, but just wondering if it is a possibility.
A couple of other oddities are the front sight, which looks very old but seems to resemble the Andy Fautheree "California" front sight. Also, this rifle is reportedly a .45 caliber, with six grooves and a right-hand gain twist! All the reliable references I know of indicate the typical Hawken rifles were rifled with seven grooves with one turn in 48".
Oddly, while the article is pretty well illustrated overall, there are no photos showing the whole rifle full-length, and there is no shot of the name stamped on the barrel. The rifle is said to be in a private collection. The owner preferred not to be identified, so we don't know exactly where it is located. The rifle appears to be in pretty good shape, overall. It would be great if Herb and plmeek could get access to it and give us a more complete description. In any event, I'll look forward to hearing what some of you more knowledgeable forum members might have to say about it.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
The link will take you to a four-page article in PDF format posted by the Iowa Blackpowder Federation. It is an in-depth consideration of an original S. Hawken rifle, evidently owned by one of the IBPF members. I had seen this article before, but was reminded of it today while researching some trifling bit of Hawken arcana. The rifle is a half-stock with a typical Hawken-style nosecap and entry pipe, which appears to be secured with one pin. The article's author said, "This rifle I believe was marked S Hawken which means it was made after 1842 and before 1862."
I'm no expert, but it has a combination of features that I found unusual. It has an iron capbox, a "Tennessee" style cheekpiece, a "flat to wrist" triggerguard rail, and a solid patent breech, rather than a hooked breech, but it is a half-stock. The barrel was said to have been shortened at some point. The entry pipe is said to be a casting, yet the buttplate was made from two pieces brazed together... Again, I'm not an expert, but this sounds like a mix of earlier and later type parts and styling. I'm wondering if it might have originally been a fullstock which was cut back and half-stocked at some point. I'm not saying I think this is the case, but just wondering if it is a possibility.
A couple of other oddities are the front sight, which looks very old but seems to resemble the Andy Fautheree "California" front sight. Also, this rifle is reportedly a .45 caliber, with six grooves and a right-hand gain twist! All the reliable references I know of indicate the typical Hawken rifles were rifled with seven grooves with one turn in 48".
Oddly, while the article is pretty well illustrated overall, there are no photos showing the whole rifle full-length, and there is no shot of the name stamped on the barrel. The rifle is said to be in a private collection. The owner preferred not to be identified, so we don't know exactly where it is located. The rifle appears to be in pretty good shape, overall. It would be great if Herb and plmeek could get access to it and give us a more complete description. In any event, I'll look forward to hearing what some of you more knowledgeable forum members might have to say about it.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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