Is there a way to postpone cleaning a ml?

[IanH]

Here's an example, the op begins with a question about breakfast cereal, it morphs into oats, and that becomes a treatise on mistreating horses.

You missed the part about two or three spitting contests starting up about what kind of oats are best or whether the colonists had the kind of oats we have today amongst the the other comments.

Kind of like I just did here....

Back on topic, I have questions. What causes the rust? Moisture reacting with powder residue? Will powder residue react at all with bare steel if no water is present? Is oxygen the real culprit since it enables reactions of just about everything? I get that sulfur dioxide forms in the presence of moisture in the barrel and that and salts of potassium and possibly calcium and other minerals from the charcoal ash are corrosive when oxygen is present, but am I missing anything? Is it safe to conclude that both water AND oxygen are doing the damage? I guess the question is, theoretically, what is more effective, an inert gas purge or total dehumidification?

 

[Tweeter and the MonkeyMan]

I may be new to BP shooting but I am not new to Metallurgy and Chemistry. It's my thought the biggest factor in determining how long of a delay is acceptable to clean a BP rifle or pistol after firing it is mainly dependent on the age of the firearm and what it is made of. Up till about 1900 the barrels, actions, locks, screws etc were made from wrought iron that had been forged, forge welded, filed, ground, milled and case hardened where needed.

Wrought iron is comprised of iron and silica slag to remove impurities during the smelting process, once the bloom of wrought iron was taken out of the furnace it put on an anvil and beaten and folded and beaten some more with sledge hammers to remove as much of the silica slag as possible, the more silica slag removed the better quality the wrought iron was. Wrought iron and wrought iron that has been case hardened is susceptible to rust and corrosion, it's the nature of the beast.

The modern steels available to gunmakers like Uberti, Pietta etc is much more resilient to rust and corrosion as the steelmakers can easily control the ingredients added during the steel making process, they can pretty much control all the elements that go into making steel to get the desired properties such as tensile strength, yield strength, elongation and to a certain degree the ability of the finished steel to fend of corrosion and rust.

My 1851 Colt Navy is an original was made in 1865 according to a serial number check on Colt's website. It is mainly made from wrought iron, case hardened wrought iron and brass. Cleaning it after shooting it is a HIGH priority for me when I get home because of the materials it's made from.

Yet years ago in 1980's when I was avidly duck and deer hunting my Browning 12 gauge shotgun which I had bought new at the time and my Lee Enfield .303 British rifle could sit for week after a week of hunting, aside from wiping down the outside of the metal components with a oiled up cloth at the end of the day it did not get cleaned and I never had any rust or corrosion issues with internal parts, external parts or the barrel / bore.

With that being said at the end of the day it's a personal choice and decision and mainly what you are most comfortable with in regards to the care of your BP Rifles and Pistols.

Edited; I forgot to mention that true wrought iron does have corrosion resistant properties over the long term and under normal atmospheric conditions which is why the wrought iron gates and fences found in the churches and castles of Europe are still around today. However the exposure to the acidic and alkali compounds created when BP is burnt results in wrought iron's corrosion resistance to be diminished.

Apologies I was going to add this in my original post but got distracted by my 2 hungry cats.

 

[Tweeter and the MonkeyMan]

You missed the part about two or three spitting contests starting up about what kind of oats are best or whether the colonists had the kind of oats we have today amongst the the other comments.

Kind of like I just did here....

Back on topic, I have questions. What causes the rust? Moisture reacting with powder residue? Will powder residue react at all with bare steel if no water is present? Is oxygen the real culprit since it enables reactions of just about everything? I get that sulfur dioxide forms in the presence of moisture in the barrel and that and salts of potassium and possibly calcium and other minerals from the charcoal ash are corrosive when oxygen is present, but am I missing anything? Is it safe to conclude that both water AND oxygen are doing the damage? I guess the question is, theoretically, what is more effective, an inert gas purge or total dehumidification?

What Creates Rust?​

Rust is an iron oxide, a product of the reaction between iron and oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. The oxygen reacts with the iron to form iron oxide, which is also known as rust. The water helps the oxygen to react with the iron by providing a source of moisture.

Rust Formation Processes​

Rust is iron oxide, which forms when iron or an alloy that contains iron is exposed to oxygen and moisture for a long time. The resulting reddish-brown appearance is due to hydrated iron(III) oxide formation.

Rusting is an electrochemical process that begins with transferring electrons from the metal to oxygen. This creates an electron deficiency in the metal, which must be filled by the flow of electrons from a more electronegative substance.

Three things must be present for rusting to occur: iron, oxygen, and water. Rust forms when these three elements combine and create an electrochemical reaction. iron + water + oxygen → hydrated iron(III) oxide. It is the hydrated part that makes rust brown instead of red.

Factors Influencing the Rate of Rusting​

When it comes to rust, not all metals are created equal. The rate of rusting depends on the various factors that can be summarized as follows:

The Type of Metal​

Some metals rust more easily than others. For example, iron and steel rust more readily than aluminum or stainless steel. The difference is due to the electrochemical potential of the metal. Pure metals are usually more reactive and therefore more prone to rusting.

Stainless steel alloys contain at least 10.5% chromium. The chromium forms a thin layer of oxide on the surface of the steel that protects it from further rusting. If your appliances are rusting, it may be due to the fact that they’re made with a less corrosion-resistant steel alloy.

The Presence of Moisture​

Rust can’t form without water. The reason why iron pipes often rust from the inside is that water vapor condenses on the metal. The presence of moisture speeds up the rusting process because it provides the electrolyte needed for the reaction to occur.

Non-alloyed metals are particularly susceptible to rusting in humid environments. That’s why you’ll often see galvanized steel or wrought iron rusting faster than other types of metal.

The Presence of Oxygen​

Rust can only form in the presence of oxygen. If you live in a dry climate, your metal surfaces may be less likely to rust. This is because oxygen is required for the reaction to occur, and it’s more readily available in the humid air.

What you need to remember is that not only oxygen is found in water or humid areas. Carbon dioxide in the air can also provide the oxygen necessary for rusting. In the presence of water, carbon dioxide reacts to form carbonic acid. This electrolyte can speed up the rusting process and cause corrosion.

Therefore, even if you don’t live in a humid climate, your metal surfaces may still rust if they’re exposed to carbon dioxide and water.

The Presence of Other Chemicals​

Rust can also form when other chemicals are present. For example, salt accelerates the rusting process by corroding the metal. This is why you’ll often see iron railings and fences rust more quickly near the ocean.

Acids can also speed up the rusting process. This is because they break down the oxide layer that forms on the surface of the metal, exposing the metal to oxygen and water hence accelerating the rusting process.

Bases can also promote rusting. This is because they neutralize the acids that form on the surface of the metal, exposing it to oxygen and water. Therefore, if you live in an area with high pollution levels, your metal surfaces may be more likely to rust.

The Temperature​

The temperature can also influence the rate of rusting. In general, the higher the temperature, the faster the rusting process. This is because the molecules of water and oxygen are more active at higher temperatures, and they can more easily penetrate the metal surface and react with the iron.

Source: Ignite Industrial Technologies. This is a pretty understandable summary of why metal rusts. A lot more simplified than the way my professors explained it during my Metallurgy and Chemical Engineering Technology program in the 1990's.

 

[IanH]

My cats are always hungry and my understanding of chemistry pretty much ended after I passed General Inorganic II almost 25 years ago, thanks for the refresher.

 

[Britsmoothy]

What Creates Rust?​

Rust is an iron oxide, a product of the reaction between iron and oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. The oxygen reacts with the iron to form iron oxide, which is also known as rust. The water helps the oxygen to react with the iron by providing a source of moisture.

Rust Formation Processes​

Rust is iron oxide, which forms when iron or an alloy that contains iron is exposed to oxygen and moisture for a long time. The resulting reddish-brown appearance is due to hydrated iron(III) oxide formation.

Rusting is an electrochemical process that begins with transferring electrons from the metal to oxygen. This creates an electron deficiency in the metal, which must be filled by the flow of electrons from a more electronegative substance.

Three things must be present for rusting to occur: iron, oxygen, and water. Rust forms when these three elements combine and create an electrochemical reaction. iron + water + oxygen → hydrated iron(III) oxide. It is the hydrated part that makes rust brown instead of red.

Factors Influencing the Rate of Rusting​

When it comes to rust, not all metals are created equal. The rate of rusting depends on the various factors that can be summarized as follows:

The Type of Metal​

Some metals rust more easily than others. For example, iron and steel rust more readily than aluminum or stainless steel. The difference is due to the electrochemical potential of the metal. Pure metals are usually more reactive and therefore more prone to rusting.

Stainless steel alloys contain at least 10.5% chromium. The chromium forms a thin layer of oxide on the surface of the steel that protects it from further rusting. If your appliances are rusting, it may be due to the fact that they’re made with a less corrosion-resistant steel alloy.

The Presence of Moisture​

Rust can’t form without water. The reason why iron pipes often rust from the inside is that water vapor condenses on the metal. The presence of moisture speeds up the rusting process because it provides the electrolyte needed for the reaction to occur.

Non-alloyed metals are particularly susceptible to rusting in humid environments. That’s why you’ll often see galvanized steel or wrought iron rusting faster than other types of metal.

The Presence of Oxygen​

Rust can only form in the presence of oxygen. If you live in a dry climate, your metal surfaces may be less likely to rust. This is because oxygen is required for the reaction to occur, and it’s more readily available in the humid air.

What you need to remember is that not only oxygen is found in water or humid areas. Carbon dioxide in the air can also provide the oxygen necessary for rusting. In the presence of water, carbon dioxide reacts to form carbonic acid. This electrolyte can speed up the rusting process and cause corrosion.

Therefore, even if you don’t live in a humid climate, your metal surfaces may still rust if they’re exposed to carbon dioxide and water.

The Presence of Other Chemicals​

Rust can also form when other chemicals are present. For example, salt accelerates the rusting process by corroding the metal. This is why you’ll often see iron railings and fences rust more quickly near the ocean.

Acids can also speed up the rusting process. This is because they break down the oxide layer that forms on the surface of the metal, exposing the metal to oxygen and water hence accelerating the rusting process.

Bases can also promote rusting. This is because they neutralize the acids that form on the surface of the metal, exposing it to oxygen and water. Therefore, if you live in an area with high pollution levels, your metal surfaces may be more likely to rust.

The Temperature​

The temperature can also influence the rate of rusting. In general, the higher the temperature, the faster the rusting process. This is because the molecules of water and oxygen are more active at higher temperatures, and they can more easily penetrate the metal surface and react with the iron.

Source: Ignite Industrial Technologies. This is a pretty understandable summary of why metal rusts. A lot more simplified than the way my professors explained it during my Metallurgy and Chemical Engineering Technology program in the 1990's.

Yeah, just use a barrier cream, mines beeswax and olive oil..,.

 

[ETipp]

Respectfully, if using muzzloaders made me feel that anxious I'd sell up.
Sorry.

No anxiety about it. Its called common sense.

Everybody to their own thang, but for this ole boy, 6-8 hours after shooting a ML is about as long as I allow mine to wait before a cleaning. And often, that's my average especially when hunting.

Much to be said for a 5 minute field cleaning until one can get time to do a proper cleaning.

 

[Felix the Cat]

Although I am in the "clean after shooting" sect, I am quite happy to use a squirt or two of WD40 to keep the demon rust at bay for a few days. WD40 is a moisture displacing agent, and although it is no use for lubrication or long term protection, keeping hydrogen dioxide off surfaces is what it was designed to do!

However..

1. If you use Pyrodex, then all bets are off! This contains potassium perchlorate and the presence of chlorine ions is seriously bad news. It needs cleaning ASAP, and a check clean 24hrs later. This can be avoided by not using Pyrodex!

2. Percussion caps can be a source of corrosion if they are not modern, corrosion resistant ones. Be very wary of using caps of unknown sources or caps not intended for use with firearms as they may contain potassium chlorate. Home made caps using match heads or toy caps, depending on what you are using as the percussion compound, may also contain chlorate. Chlorate Kills Barrels!

As a side note, the sulphur in Black Powder is needed to lower the ignition point. The percentage is low and the corrosion risk is pretty minimal. Sulphurless powder cannot be used as a priming powder in a flintlock as the ignition temperature is too high.

 

[Tweeter and the MonkeyMan]

My cats are always hungry and my understanding of chemistry pretty much ended after I passed General Inorganic II almost 25 years ago, thanks for the refresher.

You're welcome.

 

[Dismount]

Thanks, Dismount, I believe you. Do you live in a humid area? I'm in SW Ohio and humidity ranges from low to very sticky. I'm sure that air borne moisture plays a big part in this.

super humid spring and summer throat clawing humidity. thats why you bring your gun inside the house.

 

[cannonball1]

If I am target shooting I always allow time to clean the gun, but during the fall deer hunt the shot barrel might go three days before cleaning. Utah has a dry climate, but I have not had a residue of rust show up. This has been going on as far back as 1973. The barrels still look fine.

 

[IanH]

I'm still working through the phase that a lot of relatively inexperienced black powder shooters go through, kind of like the topic of this thread: This is 2023, isn't there a better way to do (insert X)?

First it was gunflints. I read about the depleted uranium frizzen shoes, and some guy who hunted every year with some east coast area machinists who installed large, sintered carbide lathe tool inserts in their flintcock jaws to good effect, investigated Grade 9 titanium for better sparks, and so on. Also, I went on the warpath for a better patch lube that worked like a grease and didn't evaporate quickly or freeze quickly yet was 100% water soluble, didn't promote immediate rust, and was non-toxic.

Eventually people like me find that the way it's been done for 300 years is actually the best way, even now. Flint and steel is all you need, you just need a decent lock and decent rocks and sometimes you need chert instead of flint. I did come up with a patch lube that does all that but it irritates my sinuses for hours after breathing the smoke. Spit makes a fantastic patch lube for most guns, beeswax and sheep fat or some kind of plant oil makes good winter lube. Plain, room temperature water is best for cleaning, provided you don't have a modern barrel that flash-rusts in the time it takes to put a fresh patch on a jag and get it down the bore again... in which case a water-soluble oil in a little oil to a lot of water ratio solves that problem completely.

However, I haven't given up on making cleaning more EFFICIENT. I've tried several processes and if I travel to shoot, when I'm finished I immediately run 2-3 plain water patches through the barrel possibly followed by 2-3 moose milk patches, leave it wet while I take off the lock and scrub it clean with plain water and a toothbrush, shake it off and set it aside, clean the breech area, run 2-3 dry patches through the bore, then put a big squirt of WD-40 down the barrel and swab that around, spray the lock down with WD-40 to blow out the hidden moisture, then run 2-3 dry patches to soak up the excess WD/water from the bore, maybe run a Ballistol patch down the bore and wipe the breech area with it afterward and wipe down the whole exterior quickly with an oily rag. Put the lock screw in the lock, wrap it in the oily rag, throw that in the bag, put the rifle in the case, and head home. I can do a deeper cleaning in a day or a week, doesn't really matter, what matters is the routine and using specific things to address fouling, water, and rust. It doesn't take as long as it sounds to do and if I don't shoot again next weekend, I make certain to run a few patches through the bore or go ahead and do a thorough cleaning.

If I shoot at home, I use the garden hose out front and a flush attachment, fill the barrel with water and let it soak while I clean and dry the lock, and get everything completely clean, dry, and oiled.

Still learning about all this but so far I can do a good enough for a week cleaning while the gun is still warm from the last shot in about five minutes and sleep well at night.

 

[Mulebrain]

I usually go three to five days before cleaning. Sometimes I do it sooner, but it’s not required

You don’t need a product

 

[tenngun]

#1 If you can't clean your muzzleloader don't use black powder, the sulfur is the corrosive ingredient. Use triple seven. If Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett knew about 777 they would have been using it. Its a propellant, thats all black powder is, using a better cleaner one doesn't make you a sinner. Btw, they didn't clean after shooting either, but as soon as they could get around to it I'm sure they swabbed the barrel a few times.
#2 plug the bore and the nipple until you can clean it. An oily piece of cloth works great for me.
#3 living in a dry climate helps.

This method worked for a cheap plastic stocked bp rifle bought at Walmart by a friend of mine. We did a test to sacrifice it to the corrosion gods years ago. Shot the heck out of it using triple seven one day, and loaded'er up and cap'd with a rag full of bore butter. I put it in my closet and left it there till the next summer. When I pulled it out the bore was coated with some white powderery residue. After cleaning the grease out the nipple she fired that round almost a year later. Once cleaned, everything looked fine. No pitting, rust or noticeable corrosion.

We did this with goex, and it was a giant pia just to get the thing to work again. Pyrodex wasn't much better.

If they had it they would have used it????
They would have to have a black kicker of course
However if Danial or David could have had high dollar bolt action or self loading gun, an AR type or such they wouldn’t carry a front stuffer.
You can bet if our boys on Omaha beech would have preferred a Star Trek Phaser if they could have had ones
I betcha the yoeman at Crecy would have rather had M1, M16 or AK 47
I think the draw of ml is using what they had, not what they would have used if they could

 

[user 16256]

If they had it they would have used it????
They would have to have a black kicker of course
However if Danial or David could have had high dollar bolt action or self loading gun, an AR type or such they wouldn’t carry a front stuffer.
You can bet if our boys on Omaha beech would have preferred a Star Trek Phaser if they could have had ones
I betcha the yoeman at Crecy would have rather had M1, M16 or AK 47
I think the draw of ml is using what they had, not what they would have used if they could

Point missed.
I have non corrosive propellant, and I use it in bp firearms. Even in my flintlocks. On occasion I use recently produced modern day commercially available black powder which barley resembles what they had 200 years ago. It is a propellant. Most of the time though, when I want that authentic sulfur dioxide smell, big cloud O smoke, and dirty mess to clean I use my own homemade willow black powder. It is a propellant.

Yes, some people like to larp, but that is not the only reason people are drawn to muzzleloaders and black powder firearms.

The "if they had it" line I used was in conjunction with "your not a sinner" due to the array of past comments on this forum about 'substitute' propellants to hopefully curtail off topic attacks. I see this didn't work.
The subject at hand is can one postpone the cleaning of a muzzleloader without ill effects?
The answer is yes, in various ways. Using a non-corosive propellant is one of them.

Btw, Star trek phasers are make believe.

 

[ETipp]

If I am target shooting I always allow time to clean the gun, but during the fall deer hunt the shot barrel might go three days before cleaning. Utah has a dry climate, but I have not had a residue of rust show up. This has been going on as far back as 1973. The barrels still look fine.

I wasn't near as concerned about rusting up the bore when I lived out west like I am here in the very humid climate. Its to my belief that high humidity accelerates the rusting process. It certainly rusts everything else in short order.

 

[Snydly]

Well... here goes. Black powder residue itself does not cause the rust. It absorbs moisture out of the air and it is the moisture that causes the rust. There I said it and I stand behind it.

 

[S.Kenton]

I’ve went to a shoot before that was an hour from my house, after I was done shooting and heading for home I swabbed the bore out as well as I could using a mixture of Murphys oil soap, ammonia and rubbing alcohol.Then when I got home, I was beat and simply swabbed the bore with wd40. The next day or so I cleaned the rifle with no ill effects. This worked for me.. it may not work for you..Normally I clean right after I shoot, but in this instance I was just beat, it was a hot day shooting, long drive home and the AC in my car was feeling so good… I was getting pretty sleepy by the time I hit my driveway.

 

[BP Addict]

I've postponed cleaning my cap 'n ball revolvers for several days and saw no harm done when I did get around to cleaning them, and had to do nothing more than the normal when I did. Those who claim rusting sets in immediately, well, maybe technically that's true, but practically speaking, I think it takes a while before you reach a point beyond which there's no return.

14 minutes!?!?!

Much depends on humidity. I once left my rifle in a case for several days in a hot room. When I realized I hadn't cleaned it there was quite a bit of surface rust present. A little Hoppe's and light rubbing with some steel wool took care of that.

Walt

 

[BP Addict]

Although I am in the "clean after shooting" sect, I am quite happy to use a squirt or two of WD40 to keep the demon rust at bay for a few days. WD40 is a moisture displacing agent, and although it is no use for lubrication or long term protection, keeping hydrogen dioxide off surfaces is what it was designed to do!

However..

1. If you use Pyrodex, then all bets are off! This contains potassium perchlorate and the presence of chlorine ions is seriously bad news. It needs cleaning ASAP, and a check clean 24hrs later. This can be avoided by not using Pyrodex!

2. Percussion caps can be a source of corrosion if they are not modern, corrosion resistant ones. Be very wary of using caps of unknown sources or caps not intended for use with firearms as they may contain potassium chlorate. Home made caps using match heads or toy caps, depending on what you are using as the percussion compound, may also contain chlorate. Chlorate Kills Barrels!

As a side note, the sulphur in Black Powder is needed to lower the ignition point. The percentage is low and the corrosion risk is pretty minimal. Sulphurless powder cannot be used as a priming powder in a flintlock as the ignition temperature is too high.

Even modern caps will create pitting if the residue is not cleaned off shortly after use. I'm not sure why.

Walt

 

[PathfinderNC]

If you want to see firsthand how nasty a muzzleloader can become if left uncleaned, just go to a Reenactment and look at a stand of arms. By golly, some of those folks don’t ever bother cleaning between events.