Is this a Revolutionary War era rifle?

[BPW1984]

Thank you Phil and Dave. This is all great info. I just read Joe Puleo’s article in Men at Arms and another on proof marks by Godwin & Evans. This is really fascinating stuff!

 

[toot]

Hello, I am brand new to this forum, since I just inherited a muzzleloader that has been passed down in the family. I was hoping for some help in identifying what this rifle is.

Here’s the background: according to family lore, it was a rifle used during the Revolutionary War. I don’t have any documentation of that but I can verify it has been passed down for at least the last 90 years.

In doing some online searching, I noticed that this is a percussion cap not a flintlock, but I also read that many old flintlocks were refitted with percussion later. The stock and butt plate look like Brown Bess, but the metal design opposite the hammer is a design I have only seen on a “German Jaegger” rifle being sold online (I did a Google Image search...). So I am left with no idea of what this rifle is or what time period is is actually from.

Any help at all would be very much appreciated!


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it look's like that someone used wood screws to attach it to the wall. the screw holes rely show up.

 

[fjrdoc]

That is a lovely family heirloom. For safety sake, just make sure that it is not loaded. You never know with these antiques.

 

[toot]

look in the lower butt. that one rely show's up. I purchased a 54 CAL. H ASTON horse pistol that some one drilled 2 holes in it, one in the pistol grip & one under the barely. so I went to the hard were store and got a furniture crayon that matched the walnut stock and applied it into the 2 holes, and VIOLA!! have to look hard to find them. hope this helps?

 

[TFoley]

Good spoof there, Toot! A whole lot cheaper than buying a set of wax stock repair fillers, too!

 

[plmeek]

Hi,
You also find that side plate on New England fowlers quite often. It was popular during the last years of the 1700s and the early 1800s.

dave

Dave, your comment got me to thinking so I looked in Tom Grinslade's FLINTLOCK FOWLERS: The First Guns Made in America at the New England fowlers he had pictured in the book. Sure enough his NE 20 has one of these sideplates. This is a scan from the book.

But as I read the description and studied the photos I discovered something interesting.

The lock on NE 20 is a Ketland lock! As can be seen in the description it says the lock plate is stamped on the inside with "WK - Ketland 7".

This made me wonder if the lock is from Ketland, could the sideplate also be from Ketland?

Then I noticed the trigger guard on NE 20 is essentially the same pattern as the one on BPW1984's gun with just a few minor details different.

The butt plate extension on NE 20 is also very similar to the one on BPW1984's gun and has the same three petal flower engraving as on the lock. It appears to be a Ketland butt plate.

With a Ketland lock and likely Ketland sideplate, trigger guard, and butt plate, I suspect that Grinslade's NE 20 is a restock of a Ketland fowler, or alternately, it was built with imported Ketland parts.

The Ketlands had an import company in Philadelphia, and their locks are seen on many Kentucky rifles. The fowlers NE 23, NE 45, NE 48, NE 49, NE 50, NE 51, NE 52, NE 53, and NE 54 in Grinslade's book all appear to have Ketland locks, so these were readily available in the region.

The "WK" on the inside of the lock on NE 20 indicates to me that it was made post-1800, after William Ketland started his own business.

Dave, I would be interested in seeing pictures of other NE fowlers with this "Ketland" sideplate pattern if you have them. This exercise has piqued my curiosity.

 

[rich pierce]

Dave, your comment got me to thinking so I looked in Tom Grinslade's FLINTLOCK FOWLERS: The First Guns Made in America at the New England fowlers he had pictured in the book. Sure enough his NE 20 has one of these sideplates. This is a scan from the book.

View attachment 67568

But as I read the description and studied the photos I discovered something interesting.

View attachment 67569

The lock on NE 20 is a Ketland lock! As can be seen in the description it says the lock plate is stamped on the inside with "WK - Ketland 7".

This made me wonder if the lock is from Ketland, could the sideplate also be from Ketland?

Then I noticed the trigger guard on NE 20 is essentially the same pattern as the one on BPW1984's gun with just a few minor details different.

View attachment 67571

View attachment 67577

The butt plate extension on NE 20 is also very similar to the one on BPW1984's gun and has the same three petal flower engraving as on the lock. It appears to be a Ketland butt plate.

With a Ketland lock and likely Ketland sideplate, trigger guard, and butt plate, I suspect that Grinslade's NE 20 is a restock of a Ketland fowler, or alternately, it was built with imported Ketland parts.

The Ketlands had an import company in Philadelphia, and their locks are seen on many Kentucky rifles. The fowlers NE 23, NE 45, NE 48, NE 49, NE 50, NE 51, NE 52, NE 53, and NE 54 in Grinslade's book all appear to have Ketland locks, so these were readily available in the region.

The "WK" on the inside of the lock on NE 20 indicates to me that it was made post-1800, after William Ketland started his own business.

Dave, I would be interested in seeing pictures of other NE fowlers with this "Ketland" sideplate pattern if you have them. This exercise has piqued my curiosity.

Good eyes!

 

[ugly old guy]

Nice heirloom. Congratulations. Like mine, it appears to be in the condition most our found. Please take the advise above and not attempt to alter it. It's one of those guns we often say: "If only it could talk" as to where it's been.

RickView attachment 67355

If a recent photo PLEASE preserve what is there and get rid of that active red rust.
No need to make it look "new", or "restore" it.
3 In One oil or WD-40 and OOOO steel wool will eliminate the rust.
(clean the bore, too)
Hopefully the barrel and lock are not pitted too bad, and no pin holes from the rust exist.

 

[toot]

Good spoof there, Toot! A whole lot cheaper than buying a set of wax stock repair fillers, too!

yes it is! and I did it 12 yrs. ago and shoot it very often, with it and no problem at all. hope it helps'? and it does harden up, and is not bothered buy weather. will not run & get tacky.

 

[springfield art]

These are the barrel proof marks. Nothing on the lock plate.

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[springfield art]

That old nut-n-bolt are hard on the eyes!