Is this buttplate wrong for S. Mtn. Rifle?

[Skychief]

I went to a shooting match yesterday and was taken by a new friend's rifle. It was a Southern Mountain type rifle (plain maple, iron furnished, no patchbox, no nosecap, etc, etc.).

The butt had a plate on it that was shaped like a fowler's buttplate, only much narrower. In other words, the heel was rounded to facilitate quick and comfortable mounting. The toe came to a point as one usually sees.

Is this type buttplate historically correct (even on rare occasions) on a Southern rifle?

The man that built the rifle had built rifles for 4 other shooters at the match and has been at it for awhile. The builder and the owners are all big reenactors. I was quite taken by the unassuming, yet, all-business look of the gun and think I would like to tackle the design as my first build. Hence, the question about the buttplate's "correctness".

Thanks for any information you can provide!

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

If you are saying that the buttplate was basically flat, instead of crescent shaped, this is being seen on rifles used by people who don't care a whit about the rifle's traditions. They like the rifle's simple lines (and lower cost) but they want it to shoulder like their modern bolt gun. To a purist, it looks wrong, but these people wouldn't know right if it walked up and bit 'em on the rump. Nor would they care.

 

[Skychief]

If you are saying that the buttplate was basically flat, instead of crescent shaped, this is being seen on rifles used by people who don't care a whit about the rifle's traditions. They like the rifle's simple lines (and lower cost) but they want it to shoulder like their modern bolt gun. To a purist, it looks wrong, but these people wouldn't know right if it walked up and bit 'em on the rump. Nor would they care.

That's the strange thing Russ. This guy and his best friends are ardent reenactors. They travel the Midwest to all the big rendevous....Boonesboro, Mansker's and all the rest. I am not a "buckskinner" or deep historian and can't remember all the events. They even go on "scouts" with John Curry. In other words they are fevered historians of the frontier era and I can't imagine that this good fellow would carry a rifle that he didn't deem historically accurate. My ignorance about such things encouraged me to ask here. As I said I REALLY liked his rifle and how it handled, but, don't know if this buttplate is remotely HC on such a rifle. Please chime in all!

 

[bob243]

If it is his match gun it is very possible he picked something more comfortable over corectness. I seen it at a few matches. My log gun is a Early Virginia style but I put a Lehman trigger guard on it because it was more comfortable to shoot laying down.

 

[Birddog6]

Sounds like a hog rifle or barn gun to me. NOT to be confused with a Southern rifle or a Tenn. Mtn. Rifle.
Some of the hog rifles or barn guns had no buttpplate at all or just a strap of bent metal over the heel & down the butt to the toe, no toeplate or patchbox or nosecap & only 1 RR pipe. It was a Bare Essentials rifle........

 

[Skychief]

Hey birddog, thanks for your reply. I would like to know where I might see some pics of a hog or barn gun. Any suggestions or links that you might provide? BTW, I believe I saw one of your rifles at Gunmakers Hall a couple of weeks ago. Very nice work!

 

[J.D.]

Not all southern guns had that deeply hooked buttpiece. Check out the Bogle rifle on the American Historic Services page; http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/html/jos_bogle.html

The curve of the buttpiece is straighter than many, but it is not straight.

Moreover, the buttpiece of the "whale rifle" is "straighter" than many southern guns.

There is also what is thought to be a classic SW VA, iron mounted rifle with a nearly flat buttpiece.

The last two guns can be seen on the ALR "Virtual" Library & Museum.

Another SWVa/east Tn rifle without the huge hooked buttpice is illustrated here; http://www.valongrifles.com

Click on the "Iron mounted rifle" at the left of the page.

While these may not be the most common examples of TN rifles, some are considered to be classic examples of the gunmakers art, in the VA/TN region.

Depending on the region and time frame, a plain southern gun may, or may not, have that deeply hooked buttpiece.

God bless

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The flat butt on a barn gun is much more likely. With or without a buttplate. It would be very unlikely to find a fowler type buttplate on a real southern mountain rifle. I saw a flattened buttplate on a Tennessee style rifle recently and it looked just awful. It wasn't just that the installation was poor, it also looked like a nice long Tennessee rifle had a buttstock from another gun grafted onto it. It's a free country I suppose.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The guns you point out are either earlier than the rifles we are talking about or do in fact have curved buttplates. In any case, none has a fowler type buttplate. On the plain, poor boy type rifles we started out talking about, a flat buttplate would look out of place to most peoples' eyes.

 

[Birddog6]

Yes, there are exceptions to most all styles of rifles. :wink: As I was reading his description, I envisioned what I consider a hog or barn rifle, but others may not envision it the same way.

There are allot of dif variations of dif rifles. And a rifle that is a lil dif in the buttplate or T/G or lock doesn't always mean it is wrong, it just means it is not what one might normally expect to see. (IMHO)
:thumbsup:

 

[J.D.]

The guns you point out are either earlier than the rifles we are talking about or do in fact have curved buttplates. In any case, none has a fowler type buttplate. On the plain, poor boy type rifles we started out talking about, a flat buttplate would look out of place to most peoples' eyes.

Yes, the rifles I mentioned are earlier than what is normally considered the classic TN rifle. The classic TN rifles were made in the 1820s and later. Often into the 1880s and even into the 1900s.

Most of the reenactors I am aware of reenact a period earlier than that, especially those who attend events at Boonesboro and Manskers, and those that hang with Baker and Curry.

Check out the gun classified as 090212-1 Southern (Unknown) on the ALR museum.

If that isn't a NEARLY flat shotgun style buttplate, I don't know what is. And while this rifle has all of the furniture one would expect, it is still a comparatively plain southern gun.

I suppose what we are discussing is semantics. What time frame of reenacting and guns are we talking about? If the late 1780s through 1810, or so, then relatively unevolved southern guns of a style reminiscent of those made PA/MD/VA with slightly crescent buttplates or nearly flat buttplates are somewhat common.

Granted the guns that Skychief saw might have been interpretations of earlified southern guns or maybe even barn guns. Who really knows without more detailed descriptions or photos?

God bless

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

As has been pointed out, Boonesboro, Mansker's Station and probably the other events these fellows attend are much earlier that the era of the "Tennessee Mountain Rifle", therefore the "flat" buttplate could be absolutely correct. The severely curved buttplate seen on later guns didn't develop until well into the 2nd quarter of the 19th Century.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

J.D. I went to the Americna Long Rifle web sight, but could not find a museum link. Could you provide a full link to the rifle you mentioned?

 

[tallbear]

Pictured below is a copy of a original Southern(Virginia)Iron Mounted Rifle circa 1810.When you disscuse what butplate is correct you really must get more specific about time and area of the south.The cresent butts are a later feature of southern guns.Prior to that, the butplates were flatter and wider.

Mitch

 

[J.D.]

Here is an original southern rifle with classic SW VA styling, possibly made in Washington County, Missouri about 1800-1810, with great architecture and a comparatively straight buttpiece.

Kansas Volunteer,
I got into trouble for posting a link to that site, so the best I can do is suggest that you go to the "forums page" and scroll down about 3/4 of the page to ---->>> WELCOME TO THE ALR "Virtual" Library & Museum PLEASE ENTER HERE.

 

[tallbear]

JD
Thanks,yes I made it.It's one of the rifles Wallace Gusler featured in Muzzle Blasts a while back.He went over all the details and pics that he has prior to me building it,so it's pretty close to the original.

Mitch

 

[Skychief]

I appreciate all the replies guys! So that everybody is on the same page, I want to say again that the buttplate of his rifle was "fowler-like". It wasn't sharp at the heel...it was "rounded" as a fowler's buttplate. It was NOT as wide as a fowler's plate but was narrow enough to look "right" on his rifle. The toe did have a graceful angle to it. The face of the plate was NOT FLAT, but, had a bit of curve to it.

While the owner of the rifle and many of his friends are reenactors as I describe above....He never said that THIS rifle was carried or not during those events. He owns other rifles.

I realize that this thread is difficult without photos...I am sorry I have none to provide. Please make more posts here as thoughts come across your mind. I loved the design of his rifle!

 

[tallbear]

Skychief
Here is another photo of the rifle posted above.

It is pretty rounded and about 2" wide.This style is much earlier than the rifle.It dates from the Rev war or a little after.The only reason that the rifle is dated to after 1800 is because of the lock.Put an older style lock on it and it could easily qualify as a Rev war period rifle.As time past the buttplates got thinner in width and got more curve as you decribed.To say a southern rifle can't have a buttplate that resembles a fowler and not be correct, is in my mind wrong.There are a lot of questions that have to be answered before you can say it's not correct(time frame,rest of the hardware and most important the architecture)There is also the possibity that the rifle is a restock useing reclaimed parts.Just some of my rambling thoughts :grin: :grin:

Mitch

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The time period is critical. The early flat butt plates and slightly curved plates are beautiful and appropriate on earlier guns and the more severe crescent shape is later. The description given sounded more like a poor boy than the early style. In truth I like them both but I suppose when it comes right down to it, I prefer the earlier style rifles and the time period they represent.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The buttplate on the rifle in the full length photograph looks different than the one shown in your later post. Is that a shadow in the last photo or is the plate much thicker and contoured differently?

Once again, the time period is crucial. The rifle described in the original post sounded like a later period poor boy or Tennessee mountain rifle, not an early Virginia or southern rifle. Makes all the difference in the world. I don't dispute the possibility that an occasional and probably very rare early Virginia rifle had a fowler butt plate, but it wasn't the norm.