Is this buttplate wrong for S. Mtn. Rifle?

[J.D.]

Once again, the time period is crucial. The rifle described in the original post sounded like a later period poor boy or Tennessee mountain rifle, not an early Virginia or southern rifle. Makes all the difference in the world. I don't dispute the possibility that an occasional and probably very rare early Virginia rifle had a fowler butt plate, but it wasn't the norm.

You are absolutely right, Russ, fowler style buttplates on rifles was not the norm, but they were apparently used from time to time, in various locations.

Check out photos of the Bullard/Newcomer gun, or the Faber rifle, or the Marshal rifle, or RCA #142, the early composite rifle with a musket style stock and fowler hardware, or the birch stocked rifle, RCA #110, or the Issac Haines rifle, RCA #79.

The rifle in question may have been an interpretation of an early barn gun. Again, without more detailed description of the whole gun, or a photo, we're discussing an unknown.

God bless

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yep, I'd really like to see a few photos, too. Right now we're almost like a group of blind men trying to describe an elephant.

Something about this jogged my memory--takes a lot to do that-- and I remembered a gun from about fifty years ago. A really unusual old thing. In every way it looked like a fowler and a fairly early one at that--simple and plain, with a full complement of brass fowler style furniture. No cheek piece, but it had a rifle type rear sight. and the bore was rifled clear back to the breech-face. I think the stock was cherry, but that I'm not so sure of. It stands out in my memory, because a lot of fakes were turning up at this time and at first the owner thought this might be one. But the wood and metal showed even wear and lots of it and the gun was so plain that it wasn't worth faking. Also, most of the fakes with rifling had rifling filed in for only a few inches and this one was rifled all the way and showed heavy use, with pitting in both the grooves and on the lands. There was no readable mark on it nor any date, but the overall style was roughly 1740-ish or so. It was long of barrel and for a fowler of that period small bored, though I can't recall what the diameter was. The price was also too low for a faker to have made any money on it. I have always accepted as an anomaly, but real.

At any rate, even though this gun is WAY before the period we're discussing, it is a rifle of sorts carrying fowler furniture and most definitely a classic fowler buttplate!

 

[tallbear]

Russ
The pics are of the same rifle,I think what your seeing may be a little bit of shadow and a little of what angle I took the pics.The butt plate is probably a little between the two pics as far as roundness goes.

Below is posted a couple of pics of the rifle I'm working on now.It's a bench copy of a 1765 Virginia rifle.The architecture screams fowler.The original builder probably copied an English fowler or trade gun.I would post the original but don't have permmision to do so,but it saw heavy use through the years as it's worn right through to the ramrod on the forstock.It's very plain,brass mounted with almost no cheek piece.I guess my question to everyone is why wouldn't this rifle be correct anywhere on the southern frontier any time after 1765.

Mitch

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

There is a lot of fowler influence in the comb-line and yet it mates perfectly with the rifle style buttpiece. There is an early Shenandoah flavor present that is very handsome, but to my eye when taken as a whole these guns always appear as being rifles and wouldn't be mistaken for fowlers. They look especially nice with a sliding wooden patchbox. You've done an excellent job of capturing the lines of this rifle. All those curves and as I recall, quite a bit of cast off too, wouldn't make it easy to build. Thanks for posting the photos--perhaps you could continue to post them as you proceed?

Wallace Gusler had access to this rifle or one very like it and produced a comprehensive set of measurements and photographs some years ago--I believe in Muzzle Blasts--but I'd have to dig through my back issue files to be sure. Might even be able to find them on-line. Thanks again. Dan

 

[roger sells]

J.D.
Do you have a photograph of the top of the final of the butt plate of the rifle you posted on 6/30. I have several pictures of this rifle, but do not have one that showes the top view of the butt plate final. It is a nice unusual rifle.
Thanks, Roger Sells
P.S. If you have a photo please send it to me at [email protected]

 

[tallbear]

Russ
You have a good eye and a good memory.It's in the January 2003 Muzzle Blast.

Mitch

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I love that rifle! The early date for starters, but the lines, even with the bottom of the forearm worn away are sweet--betcha it spent a lot of time across somebody's saddle pommel.

I have a well seasoned rough maple blank that I got from Allan Sandy a while back that might just work for this rifle. What buttplate and triggerguard are you using?

Thanks for the reference. I'll dig out my copy of the magazine. Would have taken me a month otherwise! Dan

 

[tallbear]

I'm useing a butt piece and trigger guard cast off the original.Reeves Goring #10 buttpiece and trigger guard are cast off the next generation rifle from the same shop and will work.The buttpiece need to be peened a little wider.Ed rayle has the exact barrel profile and can make the barrel for you.

Mitch

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Thanks. My stock blank isn't getting any younger! And neither am I.

 

[tallbear]

Russ
Did you get my PM??If not shoot me an e-mail at [email protected].

Mitch

 

[J.D.]

J.D.
Do you have a photograph of the top of the final of the butt plate of the rifle you posted on 6/30. I have several pictures of this rifle, but do not have one that showes the top view of the butt plate final. It is a nice unusual rifle.
Thanks, Roger Sells
P.S. If you have a photo please send it to me at [email protected]

No, Roger, I don't. In looking at an enlarged photo of the butt, I suspect that the finial of the buttpiece may have the same acorn finial of the triggerguard.

I have an enlarged photo of this gun hanging over the computer desk...and the wife hates it. :grin:

That rifle is a great piece and it is obvious that Mr. Cole certainly knew what he was doing.

I'm planning, currently drawing and redrawing and making small parts, to build rifle heavily inspired by the original. I instantly fell in love with the architecture and grace of the old beauty, and gotta have it...or one inspired by it.

The buttpiece is forged and the triggerguard drawn out, with a coupla modifications to make the lines flow better. My first, ever, buttpice turned out kinda nice. I used a worn out lawn mower blade for raw material, so it's a little too heavy. I found a piece of 1/16" thick material that I will try next. A gun like that needs to be light and graceful, so clunky parts are out of place on this one. :wink:

The buttplate was easy enough, but I could use a few pointers on forging the guard. Never done anything like that.

This rifle was passed down through a family that lived within roughly 30 miles from me, and some of the Cole family still live in the area. The Coles may also be dog relations, so this rifle is really intriguing to me.

Tallbear,
I love the original that your rifle is based on. Your version ain't bad either. :wink: I have seen that old warhorse displayed and even handled it, one time. I could almost smell the campfires when I picked it up. It certainly has an aura about it.

I would love to see your finished piece.

I was looking through a TRS catalog, yesterday, and there was a comment on the early English rifles having fowler architecture and using fowler hardware.

If one compares the architecture of this old woodsrunners gun and the Faber rifle, for example, to 1740-1750 English fowlers, the architecture and furniture are very similar.

God bless

 

[Elnathan]

I went to a shooting match yesterday and was taken by a new friend's rifle. It was a Southern Mountain type rifle (plain maple, iron furnished, no patchbox, no nosecap, etc, etc.).

The butt had a plate on it that was shaped like a fowler's buttplate, only much narrower. In other words, the heel was rounded to facilitate quick and comfortable mounting. The toe came to a point as one usually sees.

Is this type buttplate historically correct (even on rare occasions) on a Southern rifle?

The man that built the rifle had built rifles for 4 other shooters at the match and has been at it for awhile. The builder and the owners are all big reenactors. I was quite taken by the unassuming, yet, all-business look of the gun and think I would like to tackle the design as my first build. Hence, the question about the buttplate's "correctness".

Thanks for any information you can provide!

Are you quite sure it was a Southern rifle, not an iron-mounted PA piece? I ask because what you are describing sounds like a Bucks County buttplate. Most of the "schimmels" - plain guns equivalent to a Southern "poorboy" - seem to come out of that reqion, incidentally.
Iron doesn't sound right for a schimmel, though.

 

[tallbear]

J.D.
I too love that rifle.It's one of those that kind of speaks to you!!I also agree that the southern rifles show much more English influence that there Pennsylvaia cousins.I will post pics of mine as I get it finished as I've had some requests for it.

One neat thing is the two rifles that I posted are related, while they don't look much alike they have one feature that Wallace Gusler has found in this grouping of rifles from the South.That is that the dovetail for the wood box goes all the way to the bottom of the box cavity rather than haveing a ledge.Helps keep the box lid from getting stuck in wet weather.He's never found this on any Pa. rifles.In the Iron Mounted rifle the dovetail runs staight to the bottom of the box and on the woodsrunner the bottom of the cavity is rounded on the bottom.Important features in getting these guns correct.

Mitch

 

[Skychief]

I went to a shooting match yesterday and was taken by a new friend's rifle. It was a Southern Mountain type rifle (plain maple, iron furnished, no patchbox, no nosecap, etc, etc.).

The butt had a plate on it that was shaped like a fowler's buttplate, only much narrower. In other words, the heel was rounded to facilitate quick and comfortable mounting. The toe came to a point as one usually sees.

Is this type buttplate historically correct (even on rare occasions) on a Southern rifle?

The man that built the rifle had built rifles for 4 other shooters at the match and has been at it for awhile. The builder and the owners are all big reenactors. I was quite taken by the unassuming, yet, all-business look of the gun and think I would like to tackle the design as my first build. Hence, the question about the buttplate's "correctness".

Thanks for any information you can provide!

Are you quite sure it was a Southern rifle, not an iron-mounted PA piece? I ask because what you are describing sounds like a Bucks County buttplate. Most of the "schimmels" - plain guns equivalent to a Southern "poorboy" - seem to come out of that reqion, incidentally.
Iron doesn't sound right for a schimmel, though.

That is what the owner called it.

BTW all, I went to the CLA site and found a very similar buttplate on a rifle for sale there. I will try to get a page # and desription for you all to have a gander at it. I wish I was more computer savvy and could cut and paste it here.

 

[Skychief]

Okay.....If you will go to the Contemporary Longrifles Association, I can direct you to a photo of a rifle wearing a VERY similar buttplate as the one in question.

Click "Contemporary"
Search "kentucky longrifles"
go to page 4 (of 5)
Find "English 18th Century repro rifle"


This rifle is wearing a buttplate very, very similar to the one on the "Southern" rifle in question. I hope this will help!

 

[roger sells]

Thanks for the info.
Roger Sells

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Okay.....If you will go to the Contemporary Longrifles Association, I can direct you to a photo of a rifle wearing a VERY similar buttplate as the one in question.

Click "Contemporary"
Search "kentucky longrifles"
go to page 4 (of 5)
Find "English 18th Century repro rifle"


This rifle is wearing a buttplate very, very similar to the one on the "Southern" rifle in question. I hope this will help!

It's a bit difficult to reconcile anything about the above rifle with a southern mountain rifle or a poor boy or a barn gun or a hog rifle.

These English rifles have an architecture all their own and are easily distinguished from other styles. And they do derive from the English fowler of the period, another very lovely piece. But both of these firelocks carry a full set of furniture at the very least. Butt piece, side plate, ramrod thimbles and entry pipe and usually a thumbpiece.

It's possible that a rifle or three would have been made using or reusing an old fowler buttpiece, but the rifle you are describing sounds like an anomaly. The odd style, narrow butt piece indicates a 19th century rifle of eccentric build, perhaps simply to suit the builder's whim. But that early style butt piece doesn't really belong on a rifle from this period nor would a fowler butt be described as narrow.

I think the only way to satisfactorily resolve this question is with photographs of the rifle itself.