Is this Moroccan flintlock pistol authentic?

[Narfrederick]

Hello,

I've got another head scratcher for you guys. I had posted another thread about a mystery 18th-Century flintlock rifle and now I have another question about another gun in my collection.

So, I am not an expert on guns but I collect 18th-Century artifacts. This was purchased several years ago and I was told it was Moroccan. I had taken this gun to an auction house (along with the other in my possession) and was told this pistol was a souvenir from the Caribbean(?) from the 1940s. I will not argue with an expert's opinion but I asked why he had such a specific timeframe and the only thing that convinced him that this was a fake was the fact that it had never been shot, the frizzen (I think) had no scratches therefore it had never been fired and people from the 18th-Century didn't decorate with guns.

When I inspected the gun I had noticed the screws and rivets I wondered how a souvenir could be faked so precisely from the 1940s.

I don't know, maybe I'm in denial. What do you think? Does this really look like a souvenir or reproduction?

 

[tenngun]

It looks good in photos, and I don’t know enough about them to pick out any wrong details.
A caveat I would add is between cr 1870 and the 1930 there was a big market in fake antique guns produced in France Spain, Portugal and Morocco

 

[PathfinderNC]

Looks like it’s an imitation to me. Maybe a made-for tourist item? Try disassembling it if you can. Does the lock function (you can use a piece of wood for a flint to test it) and if you install a flint, does it even spark?
It’s helpful to do a careful comparison with authentic arms of the period (even photos) and you can see tell-tale differences.

 

[waarp8nt]

I'm no expert, I too like to collect pre 98's, but to me the dead give away is the lock sets on top of the wood. I would say its a souvenir.

 

[PathfinderNC]

I'm no expert, I too like to collect pre 98's, but to me the dead give away is the lock sets on top of the wood. I would say its a souvenir.

Actually the lock plate surface (if it’s beveled) sitting proud of the lock panel is one of the more accurate features of the piece (locks sit about half-deep into the mortises). That being said, the rest of it lends it to many features being very questionable.

 

[TFoley]

I'd be amazed if it was older than 1970. Only Stevie Wonder could be fooled by this item.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hello,

I've got another head scratcher for you guys. I had posted another thread about a mystery 18th-Century flintlock rifle and now I have another question about another gun in my collection.

So, I am not an expert on guns but I collect 18th-Century artifacts. This was purchased several years ago and I was told it was Moroccan. I had taken this gun to an auction house (along with the other in my possession) and was told this pistol was a souvenir from the Caribbean(?) from the 1940s. I will not argue with an expert's opinion but I asked why he had such a specific timeframe and the only thing that convinced him that this was a fake was the fact that it had never been shot, the frizzen (I think) had no scratches therefore it had never been fired and people from the 18th-Century didn't decorate with guns.

When I inspected the gun I had noticed the screws and rivets I wondered how a souvenir could be faked so precisely from the 1940s.

I don't know, maybe I'm in denial. What do you think? Does this really look like a souvenir or reproduction?

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I'd be amazed if it was older than 1970. Only Stevie Wonder could be fooled by this item.

I'm not that certain. It's one of the best "wall hangers" that I've seen if it's just a wall hanger

Note the "wedding bands" where the barrel transitions from octagon to round.
Note the grooves on the face of the frizzen
Note the fit of the sideplate opposite the lock, and the fact there is a plate and not brass washers under the bolts

These details are completely unneeded in a "wall hanger" which does not function and is not intended to function. WHY go to all that trouble when a tourist will buy something taking a lot less effort to complete?

I think perhaps the parts came off of a functional pistol, but the wooden part was redone. Note how the flat faced lock is "proud" but the trigger guard and side plate are a tad too deep BUT they do fit the wood. Further note how the lock retaining screws and the cock screw are not buggered in any manner, but the screw forward of the bow in the trigger guard is obviously quite old.

So I think somebody took an almost complete set of pistol parts, and restocked them into your pistol, replacing the missing lock bolts and such. Then the wood finish was applied all over the piece, to color the wood and "antique" the look of the piece. The ramrod was omitted perhaps because the interior channel was beyond the restocker's ability. Have you checked to see if the ramrod hole into the stock is the right size and depth?

I'd like to see photos of the touch hole as well as the interior of the barrel.

LD

 

[Narfrederick]

It looks good in photos, and I don’t know enough about them to pick out any wrong details.
A caveat I would add is between cr 1870 and the 1930 there was a big market in fake antique guns produced in France Spain, Portugal and Morocco

I see, that's good to know.
I wanted to look up some more information, wow, they designed some funky guns back then! That doesn't really surprise me though. It seems that between the pure fakes there were some cases of real guns being Frankenstein'd to make complete pieces. Regardless, these guns are definitely pieces of art.

 

[Narfrederick]

I'm not that certain. It's one of the best "wall hangers" that I've seen if it's just a wall hanger

Note the "wedding bands" where the barrel transitions from octagon to round.
Note the grooves on the face of the frizzen
Note the fit of the sideplate opposite the lock, and the fact there is a plate and not brass washers under the bolts

These details are completely unneeded in a "wall hanger" which does not function and is not intended to function. WHY go to all that trouble when a tourist will buy something taking a lot less effort to complete?

I think perhaps the parts came off of a functional pistol, but the wooden part was redone. Note how the flat faced lock is "proud" but the trigger guard and side plate are a tad too deep BUT they do fit the wood. Further note how the lock retaining screws and the cock screw are not buggered in any manner, but the screw forward of the bow in the trigger guard is obviously quite old.

So I think somebody took an almost complete set of pistol parts, and restocked them into your pistol, replacing the missing lock bolts and such. Then the wood finish was applied all over the piece, to color the wood and "antique" the look of the piece. The ramrod was omitted perhaps because the interior channel was beyond the restocker's ability. Have you checked to see if the ramrod hole into the stock is the right size and depth?

I'd like to see photos of the touch hole as well as the interior of the barrel.

LD

There were definitely repairs, one that questions the originality. The metal embellishments around the end look like they were broken and flexed. There is a nail holding up one of the broken pieces of metal which tells me that was repaired. It could be that they belonged on another pistol and were damaged during removal.
It's not terribly upsetting if it is a souvenir, but I wanted to make sure all details were looked over thoroughly. But I do agree it was made very very very well if it is just a souvenir. Comparing to other examples this really has a lot more details.

Is there a way to measure the right size and depth of the ramrod hole?

Interior of the barrel is hard... but, I took a crack at it.

 

[rickystl]

Hello again.

I'm going to respectively disagree with some of the other posts above. IMHO this pistol is the genuine article, not a tourist copy.

This is what Eastern gun collectors commonly refer to as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. They were often carried in pairs. Moroccan ? Perhaps. But more likely made in one of the many small shops in the Balkans. The owner(s) of the pistol could have resided most anywhere in the Region. These pistols were very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. They were made by the thousands. Usually with barrels, locks, and hardware imported from Europe (especially Italy), and assembled in the local shops. Their primary use period runs from the late 18th all the way to about the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century. Hard to believe but flintlocks were still in common use in the Region even this late. The export market for these pistol parts must have been enormous. LOL That's the likely reason there are so many original examples still available today. The lock on your pistol looks like one of the typical European export locks to the Region. The narrow piece of the long front barrel band made to look like a ramrod is just a styling exercise. They were usually made with no ramrod facility on the stock. The locals preferred to load their pistols with a separate rod hanging from a throng on the neck called a Suma (there are other names also). These pistols turn up from plain to highly decorated and all points in between. Unless made as a pair, there are no two that look exactly alike. The serrations on the frizzen are common on these locks exported to the Region. The origins coming from Spanish locks. Looking at the muzzle and pan to vent hole relationship, to me, is more evidence of it being an original piece. By the way, after a few decades studying these Eastern market guns, I've noticed, even on the best examples, that the lock inletting to the stocks are somewhat mediocre, but OK. Not as tight as the European gun builders. Always thought this strange. With all the exterior decorative work they could accomplish, their lock inletting was just a bit sub-par.

There are indeed copies of these pistols that were made for the tourist market. The copies made from about the 1960's and earlier are usually made better. Often with a combination original parts and new parts. The copies made around the 1970's and later are obvious wall hangers. Anyway, hope this helps. Nice pistol.

Rick

 

[PathfinderNC]

Hello again.

I'm going to respectively disagree with some of the other posts above. IMHO this pistol is the genuine article, not a tourist copy.

This is what Eastern gun collectors commonly refer to as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. They were often carried in pairs. Moroccan ? Perhaps. But more likely made in one of the many small shops in the Balkans. The owner(s) of the pistol could have resided most anywhere in the Region. These pistols were very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. They were made by the thousands. Usually with barrels, locks, and hardware imported from Europe (especially Italy), and assembled in the local shops. Their primary use period runs from the late 18th all the way to about the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century. Hard to believe but flintlocks were still in common use in the Region even this late. The export market for these pistol parts must have been enormous. LOL That's the likely reason there are so many original examples still available today. The lock on your pistol looks like one of the typical European export locks to the Region. The narrow piece of the long front barrel band made to look like a ramrod is just a styling exercise. They were usually made with no ramrod facility on the stock. The locals preferred to load their pistols with a separate rod hanging from a throng on the neck called a Suma (there are other names also). These pistols turn up from plain to highly decorated and all points in between. Unless made as a pair, there are no two that look exactly alike. The serrations on the frizzen are common on these locks exported to the Region. The origins coming from Spanish locks. Looking at the muzzle and pan to vent hole relationship, to me, is more evidence of it being an original piece. By the way, after a few decades studying these Eastern market guns, I've noticed, even on the best examples, that the lock inletting to the stocks are somewhat mediocre, but OK. Not as tight as the European gun builders. Always thought this strange. With all the exterior decorative work they could accomplish, their lock inletting was just a bit sub-par.

There are indeed copies of these pistols that were made for the tourist market. The copies made from about the 1960's and earlier are usually made better. Often with a combination original parts and new parts. The copies made around the 1970's and later are obvious wall hangers. Anyway, hope this helps. Nice pistol.

Rick

This is a good educational thread (thanks). Obviously we can see there were different skills in use and not all firearms in the world were (are) “first class” or Euro-centrric.

 

[Rudyard]

Hello again.

I'm going to respectively disagree with some of the other posts above. IMHO this pistol is the genuine article, not a tourist copy.

This is what Eastern gun collectors commonly refer to as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. They were often carried in pairs. Moroccan ? Perhaps. But more likely made in one of the many small shops in the Balkans. The owner(s) of the pistol could have resided most anywhere in the Region. These pistols were very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. They were made by the thousands. Usually with barrels, locks, and hardware imported from Europe (especially Italy), and assembled in the local shops. Their primary use period runs from the late 18th all the way to about the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century. Hard to believe but flintlocks were still in common use in the Region even this late. The export market for these pistol parts must have been enormous. LOL That's the likely reason there are so many original examples still available today. The lock on your pistol looks like one of the typical European export locks to the Region. The narrow piece of the long front barrel band made to look like a ramrod is just a styling exercise. They were usually made with no ramrod facility on the stock. The locals preferred to load their pistols with a separate rod hanging from a throng on the neck called a Suma (there are other names also). These pistols turn up from plain to highly decorated and all points in between. Unless made as a pair, there are no two that look exactly alike. The serrations on the frizzen are common on these locks exported to the Region. The origins coming from Spanish locks. Looking at the muzzle and pan to vent hole relationship, to me, is more evidence of it being an original piece. By the way, after a few decades studying these Eastern market guns, I've noticed, even on the best examples, that the lock inletting to the stocks are somewhat mediocre, but OK. Not as tight as the European gun builders. Always thought this strange. With all the exterior decorative work they could accomplish, their lock inletting was just a bit sub-par.

There are indeed copies of these pistols that were made for the tourist market. The copies made from about the 1960's and earlier are usually made better. Often with a combination original parts and new parts. The copies made around the 1970's and later are obvious wall hangers. Anyway, hope this helps. Nice pistol.

Rick

Well despite the Nay sayers Ide go along with Ricks'i s view There's way too much nice work gone into it to be fake Tourist any thing/ I don't think Moroccan its not there usual style & I do have a pistol size Moroccan lock,. Never listen too FME s viz' five minet experts' What they know they will soon forget' Ricks been around years & I've Been around with gunmakers eyes in many lands for the last 65 years still learning of course' Even De Witt Baileys letter heads said' Student of Arms 'Non of his peers would argue otherwise & say the same .
Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

Hello again.

I'm going to respectively disagree with some of the other posts above. IMHO this pistol is the genuine article, not a tourist copy.

This is what Eastern gun collectors commonly refer to as an Ottoman Kubur (horse) pistol. They were often carried in pairs. Moroccan ? Perhaps. But more likely made in one of the many small shops in the Balkans. The owner(s) of the pistol could have resided most anywhere in the Region. These pistols were very popular throughout much of the Ottoman Empire. They were made by the thousands. Usually with barrels, locks, and hardware imported from Europe (especially Italy), and assembled in the local shops. Their primary use period runs from the late 18th all the way to about the 3rd Quarter of the 19th Century. Hard to believe but flintlocks were still in common use in the Region even this late. The export market for these pistol parts must have been enormous. LOL That's the likely reason there are so many original examples still available today. The lock on your pistol looks like one of the typical European export locks to the Region. The narrow piece of the long front barrel band made to look like a ramrod is just a styling exercise. They were usually made with no ramrod facility on the stock. The locals preferred to load their pistols with a separate rod hanging from a throng on the neck called a Suma (there are other names also). These pistols turn up from plain to highly decorated and all points in between. Unless made as a pair, there are no two that look exactly alike. The serrations on the frizzen are common on these locks exported to the Region. The origins coming from Spanish locks. Looking at the muzzle and pan to vent hole relationship, to me, is more evidence of it being an original piece. By the way, after a few decades studying these Eastern market guns, I've noticed, even on the best examples, that the lock inletting to the stocks are somewhat mediocre, but OK. Not as tight as the European gun builders. Always thought this strange. With all the exterior decorative work they could accomplish, their lock inletting was just a bit sub-par.

There are indeed copies of these pistols that were made for the tourist market. The copies made from about the 1960's and earlier are usually made better. Often with a combination original parts and new parts. The copies made around the 1970's and later are obvious wall hangers. Anyway, hope this helps. Nice pistol.

Rick

Ide' agree and this flipant'Kyber pass'
&' Camel gun' stuff is a non sense (I've been up the Kyber pass Peshawar to Cabool ) Just not their style as for Caribbean ! hardly not that I looked any .
Rudyard