It ain't gospel

[Rifleman1776]

First, a sermon. :shocked2:
I often see comments, usually from beginners, that go like this: "If Lyman/TC/CVA/etc. says to do it this way then that is what I am going to do."
Well, folks, in this game there are other ways to learn right from wrong safely and enjoyably.
I just stumbled across a 1970 edition of the Lyman (modern gun) reloading manual. It has a section on bp and muzzle loading. OK, so far, so good. Paging through, I found reference to loading data and advice for the Navy Arms (Pedersoli) Brown Bess. The book reccomends using a patched .662" round ball. Many of us use much larger. Mine is a .731" and shot patched. It also reccomends......hold on to yer chapeu....use of a #68569, 730 grain MINNIE BALL. :shocked2: (spelling of minnie is theirs, not my mistake). Folks, Lyman is a great company but they don't, and didn't, know everything. On the opening page for this section is a picture of a man loading an ml rifle with the muzzle pointed directly at his face. :shocked2: :shocked2: That is a huge no-no. :nono: :shake: When I saw that I knew what was following in this section should be read and accepted very cautiously.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There was indeed a few drastic items of misinformation about muzzle loaders back then. No internet or forums for information, etc. As I recall, the foxfire books show a gun smith forge welding a breech on a long rifle barrel.

In 1974, I purchased a double barrel percussion shot gun, that had two loads in one side. The load on top had some peculiar light brown cylindrical powder under the wad. The bottom load's powder looked like cannon powder.

 

[canepole]

Yep!

 

[Paul_R]

Gotta love these internet forums. Just like industrial users organizations, manufacturers (and their lawyers) can say what they will but for the really useful stuff ya gotta go to the users.

Thanks for the reminder and thanks to everybody here for all the useful stuff they contribute! :hatsoff:

 

It ain't just muzzleloaders.

Years ago I had a S&W hand ejector in 32/20.
I was trying to find reloading tables for it and having a hard time, because everything I found specified "do not use for revolvers". Everything was intended for lever-action rifles and/or Contenders.
Finally, I found data for revolvers in a Hodgdon manual. There was just one problem. Their starting loads were hotter than midrange loads everyone had for Contenders using identical powders.
It bothered me enough that I called them. The guy I talked to insisted that it was right. I told him I hoped they had good lawyers and gave up.
BTW, I finally found an old manual that had the info I needed.

 

[M. De Land]

The rifled muskets made by contract and later various arsenals did have the nipple bolster forge welded to the barrel by design. They were never integral.
The barrels were forge welded and not bored through as well. Mike D.

 

[George T.]

I have never read much about loading and shooting muzzle loader. My knowledge was mostly word of mouth. I remember reading about gun writers getting 6 to 8 inch groups with the then new T/C Hawken. We were getting 2 1/2 to 3 inch groups at matches. I think that unless you have the MLR itch you don't know much about them. Geo. T.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I have seen an old TC manual that recommended a double patch ball load for whitetails when the hunter had a .45 rifle, and gave loading data for the same. They apparently didn't think a single .440 round ball would do the job.

Then you have "hunter safety manuals" that have folks doing some silly stuff. A few years ago the Maryland manual (which they bought from a company "as is") showed that loading a muzzleloading rifle or shotgun you should hold the gun between you knees, muzzle away..., but what they didn't seem to understand was that if you slipped and fell, and landed in a sitting position on your arse, the muzzle would be pointed at your chest. Now this might be good on the range, but say you were standing on the slope of a hill, in the snow, when hunting...? If you were loading a muzzleloading pistol for hunting you were supposed to kneel with the pistol braced between your knees. No recommendation as to what to do if you couldn't get into that position due to age...

The same manual also told folks to remove their hunter orange hat and place it over the muzzle of the gun when crossing a fence. Place the gun on ground under the fence (I believe the idea was to keep the muzzle free of dirt). Then the hunter would climb over the fence, retrieve the gun, and remove the hat and place it back on one's head. The problem was that in Maryland you only have to wear a blaze orange hat, so while you are crossing or climbing a fence, you are moving while not wearing blaze orange, and the only piece of blaze orange that you have is on the ground. :shocked2:

The same manual told muzzleloader hunters to "only take enough powder necessary for the hunt; no more than three loads for a deer hunt." The same manual also said that a signal quickly made in a group of three was a distress call, so three blasts on a whistle or three shots from a gun... OK so during hunting season how do folks know the three shots are a signal and not simply a hunter, and if you are only carrying three shots because the manual said that's all you should have when hunting with a ML?

LD

 

The same manual told muzzleloader hunters to "only take enough powder necessary for the hunt; no more than three loads for a deer hunt." The same manual also said that a signal quickly made in a group of three was a distress call, so three blasts on a whistle or three shots from a gun... OK so during hunting season how do folks know the three shots are a signal and not simply a hunter, and if you are only carrying three shots because the manual said that's all you should have when hunting with a ML?

LD

Well, it's only deer.
In Man-Eaters of Kumaon, Jim Corbett relates that he only had three cartridges while hunting his first man-eating tiger! An animal with hundreds of victims to its credit.
It's also kinda funny thinking about firing three shots from a muzzleloader for a distress signal. It wouldn't be BOOM,BOOM,BOOM, it would be BOOM,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BOOM,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BOOM. Like you pointed out,the three quick shots are what you hear opening day when there is a brass shucker in the area.

 

[nkbj]

Oughta give double balls a try in the long .40 GM drop in. Just for grins.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Oughta give double balls a try in the long .40 GM drop in. Just for grins.

That can be a dangerous experiment unless done right. Yes, there are more than one way to do it. BTW, it won't add any 'whompability' or 'killability' to your rifle. Just fuss and bother with very little advantage, if any, added.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

Oughta give double balls a try in the long .40 GM drop in. Just for grins.

That can be a dangerous experiment unless done right. Yes, there are more than one way to do it. BTW, it won't add any 'whompability' or 'killability' to your rifle. Just fuss and bother with very little advantage, if any, added.

When done correctly/safely, you do actually gain more energy out of given powder charge. In the four single- vs. double-ball loads that Herb presented data for, the muzzle energy increases ranged from 17%-29%. He worked up a double-ball .40 hunting load so a friend could meet a minimum-projectile-weight regulation for deer, and it took the deer.

Also, I've seen a number of terminal-ballistics discussions that suggest that multiple impacts give disproportionate increases in stopping power, so two balls each hitting at 58-64% of the single-ball energy could easily be more effective than the single ball, assuming adequate penetration.

Regards,
Joel