It arrived............now what (breechplug quest.)

[hhughh]

Got the barrel for my fowler in from Chambers yesterday. (Read as: VERY happy!)

It's the Rayl 12 gauge barrelf for their N. E. fowler. Now I'd like to get the breechplug out and start fitting the barrel into the stock, but the plug is tight as.........you fill in the blank here.

How do I go about removing it?

Thanks,
Hugh

 

[50cal.cliff]

Maybe wrong cause I do not consider myself an expert!
Alot of breech plugs are considered non-removable on todays guns. :shake: Something about the type of treads they use from factory.
If you still want to remove, I suggest you take to a good gunsmith. :hmm:
After removal, he will probably retap and rethread, as removal destroys threads!
This is my understanding, I could be wrong!!!!!!!
There are others out there, that are more knowledgeable than myself on this subject.

 

[Roy]

A good sturdy bench, a good sturdy vice with padded jaws (brass or aluminium) and a good wrench with decent leverage. Make sure that the bottom of the flat and the bottom of the plug has been marked to line back up again. It should be tight for about a 1/4 turn then it should screw out fairly easy.

 

[flintlockmdj]

In 34 years of BP shooting and building guns I never heard of this. Please explain.

 

[50cal.cliff]

My understanding is from a Traditions manual as follows!
Important: Never remove the bolster/drum or breech plug from the barrel. They have been installed at the factory such that they interlock with each other for maximum lockup strengeth. Next, a concentric communication is drilled into this unit to assure optimum ignition. The removal of alteration of these key parts will comprimise the perfomance of your gun, void your warrnty and likely create an unsafe situation.
I stated that I am not a gunsmith, but my understanding of this is that the treads are of such a construction that once the drum or breech have been untreaded it virtually destroys the treads. Thus allowing for a potential problem if not retreaded.
:surrender: Now I also know some are not constructed this way as I hear people on this forum talking about removing the breach plug. I also do remember of someone talking about taking theirs to a gun smith to have breech plug removed and rethreaded, thus allowing for removal for cleaning anytime!
This is my reason for my statement!

 

[hhughh]

Guys,
I have no desire to hurt this barrel. I have a call in to Chambers, but so far, only message machine. A cousin of mine and I just put it in a vice, put counter pressure with two pipe wrenches, and gave all we had. It hasn't moved at all. It does have the index mark on the bottom of the barrel, so I can honestly say there's been no progress.

Hugh

 

[Roy]

On occasion with a gun that is complete and has already had the drum or the touchhole liner installed, you are wise to be cautious. The threads of the liner/drum could very well be drilled into the breech plug. :v

But in this case for a barrel that has yet to have anything done with it there is not a chance of this happening.

 

[Roy]

Guys,
I have no desire to hurt this barrel. I have a call in to Chambers, but so far, only message machine. A cousin of mine and I just put it in a vice, put counter pressure with two pipe wrenches, and gave all we had. It hasn't moved at all. It does have the index mark on the bottom of the barrel, so I can honestly say there's been no progress.

Hugh

Make an index mark. It will take a bit of leverage to unscrew it. .

I have used several Rayle barrels and the plug was removed from every one of them.

 

[J.D.]

Roy is right on, in both posts. How close to the breech tang is the barrel clamped in the vise?

Clamping the barrel over the threaded breech can increase the pressure on the threads, making a plug harder to remove.

I suggest moving the barrel back a coupla inches so's the threaded portion is not under pressure from the vise. If all else fails, heat and a good sized wrench will get it loose.

50cal.cliff,
The plugs screwed in under pressure are only a problem in mass produced guns. Custom, American made, barrels are not breeched that way. Another good reason to avoid cheap guns.
J.D.

 

[mbw907]

You may have to put a little heat on the barrel portion to get things moving. I would not see how threads in a breechplug would be made to never back out. If that were the case, it would not make sense to thread it to begin with. I've taken a lot of breechplugs out and they were all threaded and all were right-hand thread. Maybe there is loctite on the threads.I go back together with a little teflon tape on the threads so next time the breechplug comes out, it is easier on me.

 

[50cal.cliff]

Traditions is an American company and like alot of American companies, has outsourced their manfacturing overseas. Now am I happy about this NO!
Its the law of supply and demand and no matter how much we like it the demand is not there for traditonal muzzleloaders. Especially since Traditons, CVA, and many more have shifted over to those cussed inlines!
I think alot of people would surprised to find out just how many of thier favorite muzzleloaders are now being made overseas, and only marketed by American Companies.
As for Traditons being a cheap rifle. Why yes the price was cheap enough to allow myself on a fixed income, to build my first muzzleloader! The intrest in traditonal muzzleloading is what originally drew me to this forum.
Would I like to have one of those seven hundred dollar plus rifles, sure!
As for quality, the Traditions I think will allow me to do exactly what I intended to do with it. That is if I do my part. The last range session I managed to put five within a 3" group after sighting in that cheap rifle!!
We all have to stay within our own budgets. I mearly was relaying some information that I thought might help keep someone from damaging a new barrel. :redface:
I said I was not a gunsmith and don't profess to know all. When asked why I made such a statement I merely replied with a direct warning from the manual I recieved with my rifle.
Never knock a mans cheap car, as that may be the one you need to get you the Emergency Room to safe your life. It may not cost as much as your Caddy but, it will do the job!
People need to think on this forum sometimes about what they are saying, or ther may be alot more following The Undertaker. In the end if we all don't support one another we will standing alone when the day comes they try to take away all guns!!!!!

 

[mbw907]

I hope that you have not taken anything personally. A lot of manufacturers do suggest certain things not be done by average owners. I understand their intentions fully as to avoid a possible lawsuit or liability. I am not suggesting that you go where you are not comfortable. If you do not feel comfortable, by all means, work around it or get someone else to attempt it for you. I was just making a statement that it can be done safely at home and it is not a really technical feat to undertake. Your mileage may vary as well as your confidence level.

 

[ehoff]

Don't know about Traditions, but some Pedersoli's breech plugs are ruined when removed. Don't know what thread profile they are using, but what ever it is once they are removed they are shot.

Almost all american made barrels use national standard threads. Standard breech plug thread sizes 9/16-18, 5/8-18, 3/4-16. I'm sure Chamber will tell you that the plug can be removed.

 

[hhughh]

Ok......have now heated the barrel and tried.........no luck.....Just on chance, with it hot, attempted to get some movement "the other way". The threads aren't left-threaded, either. Nothing gives at all.

Hugh

 

[Roy]

Don't know what else to tell ya Hugh, wish you were here I could help you out. You can give Ed Rayl a call and see what he says if you want.
If you do a search you can find his #

 

[50cal.cliff]

Weren't you!
As for my confidence level, I have no probelm with that. I have been around and worked on guns all my life, including muzzleloaders. Although this was my first muzzleloader I built from a kit. This knowledge does not make me a gun smith, just knowledgeable. :hmm:
I have learned form past experience when the company says doing such an action will void your warranty, they usually mean it! :nono:
Destroying something because the company tells you not to has nothing to do with confidence! I am confident that they are not only covering their hind ends and that's one of the reasons they do it this way. They use this process to make it easier in manufacturing. The thread is designed to break up if you remove it. That way they guarantee if do atttempt this operation you cannot assemble back and they will be free of any resposability! :youcrazy:
However I do have the confidence that with the proper tools I could retap and rethread. I am not sure if I possses taps and dies the size of a breech plug, or if the metal will be sufficent to retape the area. On this consideration, I suggested the gun smith!
:surrender:
There is a kid building a Traditions Hawken for his 4-H project,on this forum. He asked almost the same question about the drum. The kid has worked hard trying to get his project ready to show at his 4-H. He recieved what was good advice from two respected members of the forum. However I am not sure if either has actually built a recent model Traditions. What they suggested should work! However if it doesn't and the drum either strips or something else goes wrong! Well the kid will be the one stuck! :cursing:
He won't get his project done on time. Traditions will not honor the warranty. The best he may be able to do is fix it himself or get a gun smith to fix it. All of which takes time and money!
Did I take it wrong NO, but this kid may when he hears the cheap product comment!
Now I know this barrel is not a Traditions but from the trouble this man seems to be having, it may be made the same way!

 

[oldarmy]

I had the plant manager of GM barrels tell me that alot of the imported barrels have a "for lack of the correct term" Pressure fitted breech plug.
You are "NOT going to get it out" They crush fit the threads
They do it for insurance resons.. I had an ARMI sport .54 B/P sharps that I was trying to get that stinking---family web site--- breech plug out of.
Forget it.
Maybe I am wrong and if there is someone on the forum that knows how to remove them.
I would love to hear it.

 

[oldarmy]

I want to be clear that my comments were about
"IMPORTED" GUNS.
You should be able to remove that breach plug from your chambers kit... I would give them a call.
They will either walk you through it, or send you another barrel.
I have never had an American made gun kit that you couldn't remove the breech plug.
Just wanted to clarify that.

 

[hhughh]

It's out...........thanks all.

Hugh

 

[Roy]

:thumbsup: