Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
George said:
yes.
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Italian breech stamps
- Thread starter George
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Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
George said:I don't understand that one, Ike. In what situation is the maximum for black powder 800 bar? Can you explain it from another point of view?Ike Godsey said:oh i forgot to mention, blackpowder got a maximum pressure at 800 bar - which is 11603,02 psi.
Spence
ok, i'll try....
blackpowder does not burn like NC powder does. blackpowder explodes.
this explosion is not higher than 800 bar - which equals the 11603,02 PSI. no matter if you put blackpowder in a tube (like a barrel) or anythig else - no matter if you "cover" that powder with lead or anythig else - if it goes off, the maximum "power" that it would create is 800 bar.
ike
I thought that was what you were saying, thanks.
If that's true, why are these shotgun barrels marked saying they were tested at 18,000 psi and 27,000 psi, or do I have that wrong?
Did they not test them with black powder?
Confused.
Spence
If that's true, why are these shotgun barrels marked saying they were tested at 18,000 psi and 27,000 psi, or do I have that wrong?
Did they not test them with black powder?
Confused.
Spence
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
you need to understand that each country in europe has a different law.
example: take a italian copy of a COLT SAA. you will find a CAT number. that means there is a number stamped on the gun starting with "CATXXXX". if you have to identical SAA revolvers, one from Uberti and one from Pietta, the CAT numbers are different - that is italian gun law - a gun must have that number if its italian made.
EDIT:
CAT numbers indicates the maker, kaliber, barrel length and so on of the gun. CAT numbers are not serial numbers!
spanish guns do not use CAT numbers. neither do germans or dutch.
in the link (the pdf) above there is the GERMAN proof law. that has nothing to do with the italian or the spain proof laws.
italians do proof with several overloads to be "on the safe side". so do spain. but both are different because the country laws are different. germany proofes with a double load - swizerland does proof with three times a "normal load".
hard to understand if you're comming from a country that does not have any of these rules. and it is had to understand for us either.
example: take a italian copy of a COLT SAA. you will find a CAT number. that means there is a number stamped on the gun starting with "CATXXXX". if you have to identical SAA revolvers, one from Uberti and one from Pietta, the CAT numbers are different - that is italian gun law - a gun must have that number if its italian made.
EDIT:
CAT numbers indicates the maker, kaliber, barrel length and so on of the gun. CAT numbers are not serial numbers!
spanish guns do not use CAT numbers. neither do germans or dutch.
in the link (the pdf) above there is the GERMAN proof law. that has nothing to do with the italian or the spain proof laws.
italians do proof with several overloads to be "on the safe side". so do spain. but both are different because the country laws are different. germany proofes with a double load - swizerland does proof with three times a "normal load".
hard to understand if you're comming from a country that does not have any of these rules. and it is had to understand for us either.
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
George said:
i really don't know if one could be glad if there are no proof laws - especially if it is about guns.
i personally feel safe to know, my Pedersoli Bess is proofed and i can use my 100 grains charge and put a patched ball on top of it WITHOUT being hurt.
i bought an india 1728 french musket - no venthole - so no proof. i have reworked the lock and before i live fire it, i will give it to a proof house - just to be safe. i only got 10 fingers and one life - and would like to keep them all.
jdkerstetter
69 Cal.
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As I understand it Germany and Italy are two of the original 13 countries who were members under the C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente) established in 1969.
The C.I.P. establishes the standards under which each of the proof houses in these countries operates under. Isn't that right?
Enjoy, J.D.
The C.I.P. establishes the standards under which each of the proof houses in these countries operates under. Isn't that right?
Enjoy, J.D.
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
jdkerstetter said:
true. but CIP sets a minimum standard - each country could go above it - but not below it. thats why those proofes are different.
also there is a difference if you use a gunin your country or in europe. thats a difference.
i have an 1st generation COLT bisley revolver from 1911. cal. is .38wcf. it has a german blackpowder proof on it (hell knows why!) so i can shoot it here in germany if i have amunition loaded with blackpowder.
in beguim for example that does not matter - if the gun is proofed you can use it. CIP? what is CIP? :wink:
jdkerstetter
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Got it. I knew manufactures could request higher than minimum proofs. Didn't know that some of the idividual countries also insisted on higher proofs.
Thanks. Enjoy, J.D.
Thanks. Enjoy, J.D.
Golfswithwolves
40 Cal.
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I have found one source on the Interweb which states that Italian muzzleloading shotguns are proofed at 8818 psi. I could not tell for sure from the text whether this is the maximum recommended working pressure or the actual proof load pressure (which was stated to represent 30% over the max. working pressure).
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Exert from " Black Powder to Pyrodex and beyond", By Randy Wakeman.
Longer barrels are required for proper combustion and the resultant gas expansion with heavier charges, contingent on grain size. Pressures have ranged from 5,000 psi for shotguns to 25,000 psi or so for rifles. The notion that blackpowder can "ONLY" produce low pressures is incorrect, as England's Able and Nobel were able to generate pressures of over 100,000 psi in their experimentation in the 19th Century.
It seems that black powder can be used in proof testing.
Longer barrels are required for proper combustion and the resultant gas expansion with heavier charges, contingent on grain size. Pressures have ranged from 5,000 psi for shotguns to 25,000 psi or so for rifles. The notion that blackpowder can "ONLY" produce low pressures is incorrect, as England's Able and Nobel were able to generate pressures of over 100,000 psi in their experimentation in the 19th Century.
It seems that black powder can be used in proof testing.
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Ike is giving a lot of good information on proofing, but the KG 1,320 and KG 1,920 do not match the 800 BAR figure that he correctly quotes.
27,000 psi or 19,000 psi are pretty different from
11,600 psi.
First, continental convention uses a comma to denote the location of the decimal place. We use a period. The period is used to group digits by 3's, as we use the comma.
Thus KG 1,320 is KG 1.320 (and 1.920)in American. And,the listings are a weight not a pressure KG/Cm squared. I began to wonder if Golfswithwolves was onto something, since 1 to 2 KG might be the weight of the barrels.
So I went to my stable of Pedersoli SxS's, and looked for KG numbers of the type pictured above. The two older guns had identical markings with similar numbers KG 1,340 and KG 1,840 (a 10 gauge). Using my kitchen scale, which reads in both metric and English with reasonable accuracy, I weighed both sets of barrels, and the weights matched the marking on the barrels. Spence, I would suggest that you try weighing the barrels and see if that confirms my findings.
Proofing involves an inspection of the set of barrels (every barrel is tested), and measurements of the barrel are taken at several points. Then, the barrel being tested is charged with a proofing load, that is a load of powder and shot (in shotguns) that has produced the 800 BAR pressure in test equipment. The proofing load is considerably larger than the working load would be for the gun. It is presumed that the load will produce a similar pressure in the barrel being tested. Then, the charge is fired and the barrel is remeasured to see if anything has moved or deformed. The proof house does not directly measure the pressure within the barrel being proofed.
Ike's English is far better than my Deutsch, but I am not quite sure what he means by saying that Black Powder can only produce a pressure of 800 BAR. I'm guessing that we can all agree that if we put 100 grams of FFFg in a typical BP shotgun barrel, fill then fill the barrel with cement, and fire the charge, that the barrel will burst. I haven't actually seen it done, but I've certainly read reliable documentation.
Sorry for the long post, but I am missing Paul Valandingham.
27,000 psi or 19,000 psi are pretty different from
11,600 psi.
First, continental convention uses a comma to denote the location of the decimal place. We use a period. The period is used to group digits by 3's, as we use the comma.
Thus KG 1,320 is KG 1.320 (and 1.920)in American. And,the listings are a weight not a pressure KG/Cm squared. I began to wonder if Golfswithwolves was onto something, since 1 to 2 KG might be the weight of the barrels.
So I went to my stable of Pedersoli SxS's, and looked for KG numbers of the type pictured above. The two older guns had identical markings with similar numbers KG 1,340 and KG 1,840 (a 10 gauge). Using my kitchen scale, which reads in both metric and English with reasonable accuracy, I weighed both sets of barrels, and the weights matched the marking on the barrels. Spence, I would suggest that you try weighing the barrels and see if that confirms my findings.
Proofing involves an inspection of the set of barrels (every barrel is tested), and measurements of the barrel are taken at several points. Then, the barrel being tested is charged with a proofing load, that is a load of powder and shot (in shotguns) that has produced the 800 BAR pressure in test equipment. The proofing load is considerably larger than the working load would be for the gun. It is presumed that the load will produce a similar pressure in the barrel being tested. Then, the charge is fired and the barrel is remeasured to see if anything has moved or deformed. The proof house does not directly measure the pressure within the barrel being proofed.
Ike's English is far better than my Deutsch, but I am not quite sure what he means by saying that Black Powder can only produce a pressure of 800 BAR. I'm guessing that we can all agree that if we put 100 grams of FFFg in a typical BP shotgun barrel, fill then fill the barrel with cement, and fire the charge, that the barrel will burst. I haven't actually seen it done, but I've certainly read reliable documentation.
Sorry for the long post, but I am missing Paul Valandingham.
I did, and they do. Also using my pretty good kitchen scales, both guns weigh within less than half an ounce of the markings. I think you scored a 10X.GreenMt said:
Now, what is so important about the weight of the barrels that it warrants permanently stamping the weight on them?
BTW, I have only one other contemporary Italian replica long gun, a Pedersoli double rifle, and it has no such markings.
Spence
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My guess is that the bore size stamp and the weight of the barrels stamp provide the reference points to be able to determine if the barrels have been altered (and therefore out of proof etc.).
My newer Pedersoli doubles don't have the barrel weights marked either, and the barrels are much heftier.
Also, I'm glad to hear that the Pietta fits you so well.
My newer Pedersoli doubles don't have the barrel weights marked either, and the barrels are much heftier.
Also, I'm glad to hear that the Pietta fits you so well.
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
the actual wight of the barrel got nothing to do with the proof of a gun believe me. :wink:
if that would be the case, it would mean that if one reduces the lenght of the barrel (and so reducing weight) the gun will be unproofed - which is not the case. :nono:
esides that - have you ever seen any "weight" number(s) on italian made cap & ball revolver replicas? no? i don't either. could be that the weight of a barrel has nothing to do with it.
blackpowder can only "produce" a maximum preasure of around 800 bar if it explodes.
could a barrel be demaged with it? YES absolutly. and if you do that the described way by putting concred over a blackpowder charge - sure the barrel will explode. but it is a difference if the barrel explods with 800 bar or with 20.000 bar - don't you think?
again, blackpowder could only come to a maximum preasure of 800 bar.
some additional words about CIP - since i received a couple of PMs:
CIP is a kind of guideline giving a gunmaker a minimum and a maximum in which he has to work. example:
take a COLT 1911 .45 ACP. there are several important points to look at.
a) the barrel diameter before one cuts the rifling in it. CIP said there is a minimum of X if smaller - no proof! (thats one of the reasons why some of the US marked "leadball barrels for the 1911 could not be used here) if too wide - no proof either.
b) the diameter of the chamber. too small = no proof. too wide = no proof.
c) the length of the "gap" (don't know the word in english) measured from the bottom of the cartridge to the surface of the slide that holds the firingpin hole, when the slide is closed. if this "gap" is too wide - no proof.
same is true for almost every cartridge and caliber, barrel and and and.
hope you get the point and understand that CIP is not only about preasure. so CIP does not say you need to achive the exact measurement of X - but you have to stay within the a giving guideline.
ike
if that would be the case, it would mean that if one reduces the lenght of the barrel (and so reducing weight) the gun will be unproofed - which is not the case. :nono:
esides that - have you ever seen any "weight" number(s) on italian made cap & ball revolver replicas? no? i don't either. could be that the weight of a barrel has nothing to do with it.
blackpowder can only "produce" a maximum preasure of around 800 bar if it explodes.
could a barrel be demaged with it? YES absolutly. and if you do that the described way by putting concred over a blackpowder charge - sure the barrel will explode. but it is a difference if the barrel explods with 800 bar or with 20.000 bar - don't you think?
again, blackpowder could only come to a maximum preasure of 800 bar.
some additional words about CIP - since i received a couple of PMs:
CIP is a kind of guideline giving a gunmaker a minimum and a maximum in which he has to work. example:
take a COLT 1911 .45 ACP. there are several important points to look at.
a) the barrel diameter before one cuts the rifling in it. CIP said there is a minimum of X if smaller - no proof! (thats one of the reasons why some of the US marked "leadball barrels for the 1911 could not be used here) if too wide - no proof either.
b) the diameter of the chamber. too small = no proof. too wide = no proof.
c) the length of the "gap" (don't know the word in english) measured from the bottom of the cartridge to the surface of the slide that holds the firingpin hole, when the slide is closed. if this "gap" is too wide - no proof.
same is true for almost every cartridge and caliber, barrel and and and.
hope you get the point and understand that CIP is not only about preasure. so CIP does not say you need to achive the exact measurement of X - but you have to stay within the a giving guideline.
ike
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
BTW: i have checked the barrels on my Pedersoli muzzleloading double barreld shotgun - its a 12GA and it says "PN" for "poudre noir" meaning blackpowder, it has the italian proof with the star above the shield an it says "12GA".
there is also a rectangular (or square) with "BL" in it, standing for 1998. no weight on my barrels.
maybe that "weight" stamping is something that has to do with US import rules??
there is also a rectangular (or square) with "BL" in it, standing for 1998. no weight on my barrels.
maybe that "weight" stamping is something that has to do with US import rules??
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
here are the barrel stamps on my Pedersoli Bess
indicating the year 1979 and the serial# 5652 - no weight stamp.
here is a list of italian year identyfier:
maybe that helps?
ike
indicating the year 1979 and the serial# 5652 - no weight stamp.
here is a list of italian year identyfier:
maybe that helps?
ike
Ike Godsey
45 Cal.
here are two pic from the barrel of my Sanish 1757 musket:
this are typical replica stamps "Black Powder Only" and "C12" for a caliber indicator, "AMR" is the maker, 64966 is the serial# and the "FWW" is the import stamp from the german firm improting this gun.
this are the proof stamps! "18,1" is the bore size in mm. the shield indicates spanish origin. he "pyramid" stands fpr "Shot" not roundballs! and the "700Kp" indicates 700 kilopond per squre centimeter. the "Csomething" is not clear readable, but could indicate the proofhouse.
still no weigth on it...
this are typical replica stamps "Black Powder Only" and "C12" for a caliber indicator, "AMR" is the maker, 64966 is the serial# and the "FWW" is the import stamp from the german firm improting this gun.
this are the proof stamps! "18,1" is the bore size in mm. the shield indicates spanish origin. he "pyramid" stands fpr "Shot" not roundballs! and the "700Kp" indicates 700 kilopond per squre centimeter. the "Csomething" is not clear readable, but could indicate the proofhouse.
still no weigth on it...
Thank you, Ike, good info. I'm pleased to have the Italian date code chart, and to understand what the PN indicates.
Things change. My Pedersoi, bought about 1975, has no date code, but the Pietta has one indicating it was made in 1980.
If anyone ever figures out why some of these barrels are stamped with their weight, please pass it along.
Spence
Things change. My Pedersoi, bought about 1975, has no date code, but the Pietta has one indicating it was made in 1980.
If anyone ever figures out why some of these barrels are stamped with their weight, please pass it along.
Spence
Ike, head space. The gap between breech face and a cartridge :thumbsup:
B.
B.
