ITX lead free round balls

[Billnpatti]

Come on over, brother, I like your spirit. I will help you with your Texas citizenship papers and work on helping you to learn the language spoken here. We'll scrub off the California and have you looking and talking just like a Texan in no time. :hatsoff: :haha:

 

[Billnpatti]

Here ya go
http://hillbrothers.com/msds/pdf/n/zinc-slab.pdf

 

[Billnpatti]

I made a few calculations to come up with the number of brass balls of the size that you tested that a nice medium sized 150 pound animal would have to eat in order to become intoxicated to the LD50 level. My calculations were based on a ball consisting of 40% zinc and that the ball would be completely digested with no undigested brass left in the droppings. With these assumptions an animal of that size would have to find and eat 4 brass balls and completely digest them in order for him to reach the LD50 of 100 mg Zinc per kilogram of animal weight. In order to know exactly how many balls would have to be eaten, you would have to determine how completely digested the balls would be. So, I propose that California fund a study to see how completely an animal will digest a brass ball when eaten. Feed a brass ball to an animal and recover it from their dung. The weight after passing through the animal divided by the original weight of the ball times the four balls that were determined to contain sufficient zinc to cause the animal to reach the LD50 would tell us how many of these brass balls the animal would actually have to eat to become poisoned.

These calculations did not take into consideration the added fire hazard presented by the additional hydrogen gas produced when the stomach acids react with the zinc in the brass. One mole of zinc combined with 2 moles of stomach acid yields one mole of zinc chloride plus one mole of hydrogen gas. Hydrogen gas is highly flammable as is the methane that is also a normal part of an animal's flatulence. So, not only do the brass balls, when eaten in sufficient quantity, poison the animal, the animal also becomes a potential bomb. One dying fart near a spark and WHOOM!

Obviously, those brass balls are a hell of a hazard. Exploding goats could cause a lot of wildfires. :haha: Lead balls, when eaten, do not cause this dangerous fire hazard. For fire safety, shoot lead balls. Remember, only you can prevent wildfires.

And that, my friends, is how you determine how dangerous brass balls would be to California wildlife. You cruel, thoughtless people from outside the People's Republic of California. :rotf:

 

[azmntman]

We need to find you a part time job! :rotf:

 

[Flintfan69]

All humor aside, unfortunately the only animal they care about in California (or at least the one they always wheel out as the poster child for banning lead) is the condor.

Trying to help a bird survive that has been on it's way to extinction for a 1000 years, is a losing battle. That won't stop them from using any excuse to ban lead (or anything else even remotely toxic) in an attempt to save it. Unfortunately they also know that by banning lead, they will reduce the number of hunters, shooters, and gun owners in the process.

 

[azmntman]

Perhaps one should print up some "Non-Toxic" lead labels to affix to their ammo boxes? Stupidity factor in this great land is right about there, likely get away with it (more often than not). :rotf:

 

[Patocazador]

Why would an animal eat any metal ball? Lead, brass, or other?

Dog owners used to have their dogs swallow copper pennies to control worms. Whether it controlled worms is up for debate but the dogs didn't swallow them on purpose. People who used copper pennies for that purpose before the alloy switch obviously didn't get the memo about the new pennies being virtually devoid of copper.

 

[Flintfan69]

Why would an animal eat any metal ball? Lead, brass, or other?

Animals, and raptors in particular, eat spent projectiles in the gut piles of dressed game, or crippled animals that have been shot.

 

[roundball]

LOL...I knew there was an attitude in there...just had to tease it out
:thumbsup:

The context is wildlife having a single rare, almost non-existent incidental contact with zinc in a stray projectile, not dogs & cats eating pennies.
IMO, as gung ho as EPA save-the-whale folks are about anything remotely toxic, if there was a hint of a possibility that zinc would harm wildlife seems to me zinc would have been banned right along with or right on the coat-tails of lead, not actually pro-actively approved for use by the F&WS.

Your mileage may vary...

 

[Zonie]

To all:

I figure anyone concerned with the amount of zinc in brass alloys had best tear out all of their plumbing fixtures.

Most of the better (and not so better) faucets are made from cast brass.

After the knots on their heads made by their upset "significant other" heal they might decide that zinc isn't so bad after all. :shake:

Yes, I read thru the links about dogs eating penny's so I feel justified in saying, "If you hunt with brass balls instead of lead, don't eat them."

Come to think about it, don't eat any of the pure lead balls you fired either.

 

[RedFeather]

Wonder how a ball bearing would ricochet off something? I doubt my range (100 yards) would allow them on account of that. We've used screened soil to overlay the berm but I'm sure there are still a few rocks in it.

 

[Zonie]

A long long time ago I learned that a lead roundball has the perfect shape for ricocheting off of all sorts of surfaces.

 

[Flintfan69]

LOL...I knew there was an attitude in there...just had to tease it out
:thumbsup:

Huh?

To all:

I figure anyone concerned with the amount of zinc in brass alloys had best tear out all of their plumbing fixtures.

Most of the better (and not so better) faucets are made from cast brass.

After the knots on their heads made by their upset "significant other" heal they might decide that zinc isn't so bad after all. :shake:

Yes, I read thru the links about dogs eating penny's so I feel justified in saying, "If you hunt with brass balls instead of lead, don't eat them."

Come to think about it, don't eat any of the pure lead balls you fired either.

This discussion has gone off in two distinct tangents...

As to the first one.

The problem you are having is that you are a reasonable person with common sense, discussing this topic with other reasonable people, also with common sense.

The people trying to ban non toxic ammo (especially in California) DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOUR HEALTH. It is being done to reduce the amount of hunters, shooters, and gun owners in general. It is being veiled behind weak environmental science.

I completely agree, zinc is much less dangerous than the lead we have all been using. Having said that, brass will NEVER be allowed for use as a projectile in California, or any other state that has taken such a hard stance on toxic shot.
There is clearly enough evidence that zinc has toxic side effects, and that will be used to deny it's use in solid projectiles that are made from a large percentage (brass).

As to the second point. Putting all this non-toxic garbage aside. If you are dead set on using one, pure copper is a much better choice for a round ball than brass. Apparently Roundball has taken a lot of time doing target practice with brass ammo, and all I pointed out was that was wasted time because brass will not be allowed for use as a choice in the strict non-toxic areas. Again, not sure why you would ever want to use brass in the first place, because it is not a good choice for roundballs.

Anyway, at the end of the day I don't really care, it's going to be up to Roundball to try and convince the powers that be in California that zinc isn't dangerous.

By the way, it's been a few years since I've bought a new fishing reel. The last one I bought was a Shimano. On the box was a label that said something to the effect of "this product contains a substance that has been determined to be harmful by the state of California". That label was added to the box by the manufacturer because the reel had brass gears that contained zinc.

Good luck.

 

[silly goose]

I would think down range energy may be a factor when comparing copper to brass. I don't have any numbers to offer, but my vote would go to brass. I'm not giving up on lead yet. :grin:

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Copper has a density of 8.96 grams per cubic centimeter

Brass has a density of 8.4 grams per cubic centimeter

Copper being heavier than brass for a givin ball diameter would give it a greater retained down range energy.

 

[Zonie]

It seems your worry about California or any other State banning Zinc for hunting is totally unfounded.

There are no laws or proposed laws that I could find in any State banning zinc in any projectile.

Ironically, Washington and California do have a law that limits the amount of copper, antimony, nickle and zinc in brake friction pads and shoes.

 

[coloradoclyde]

A long long time ago I learned that a lead roundball has the perfect shape for ricocheting off of all sorts of surfaces.

AND HOW! and the harder it is the more likely to ricochette

 

[Flintfan69]

It seems your worry about California or any other State banning Zinc for hunting is totally unfounded.

There are no laws or proposed laws that I could find in any State banning zinc in any projectile.

Ironically, Washington and California do have a law that limits the amount of copper, antimony, nickle and zinc in brake friction pads and shoes.

Well...to point out the obvious...that's because it has not become an issue. No one is pressing to use brass as a projectile, yet.

The only material (besides the tungsten/iron based alloys like ITX) approved by California for use as rifle bullets due to the upcoming lead ban is copper.

If California demands that a warning label be put on a fishing reel because it has brass gears, I guarantee you they will not allow it's use as a bullet if it was taken under consideration.

Why there is such resistance to me pointing out this obvious set of circumstances, is beyond me.

And why anyone would want to use brass (even if it was approved) over copper in the first place as a bullet is also confusing. Copper is softer and heavier, and an all around a better choice for use a round ball (besides lead of course).

You can't help people that don't want to be helped though. Just trying to keep you from wasting time experimenting with brass bullets. Lets use that energy to fight spread of these ridiculous lead bullet bans, that WILL pop up in other places around the country.

 

[azmntman]

Lets use that energy to fight spread of these ridiculous lead bullet bans, that WILL pop up in other places around the country.

In AZ I had a trophy tag for deer in a remote area by the north rim of the grand canyon. They are trying to save the Condors that been eating carcasses with lead bullets. I received from Game and Fish a certificate for two boxes of non-toxic ammo. I didnt use em cause I used my .50 (which they didn't say I couldn't). Not sure if its now the LAW about non lead ammo but soon if not already (unless the condors go away somehow).

 

[Patocazador]

I agree with the adage, "forewarned is forearmed" but it seems I don't follow it much. Perhaps we should be putting our efforts towards preventing the eventual Earth-asteroid collision instead? :idunno: