ITX shot

[BrownBear]

Huh. That's interesting, and like you, different that I'd expect with chokes. I confine all my shooting to 30 yards or less and pattern at 25 yards, but I'm not surprised by the low counts at 40. It will be interesting to see what you get with lead at that range, because I've seriously considered jug choking.

Not up on my dram/grain conversions and too lazy to look it up at the moment, but my standard duck load is a 90 grain measure of 1f Goex, Type A hard card, fiber wad lubed with olive oil, 1 1/4 oz measure of ITX #4, overshot card. Probably won't mean a thing in your gun compared to mine, but both CYL barrels on my SxS run in the +/- 60% range at 25. It's an excellent killer on ducks at that. For comparison, lead shot in the same combo drops down in the neighborhood of 50%.

Thanks for the report. Keep them coming!

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. BrownBear- I plan on trying out your load type; it comes out to about 3 1/4 drams with that 1 1/4 oz. shot. I am thinking that I used too much powder and should have matched the weight of the shot load to the charge rather than the volume of the shot load to the charge. But when my shotgun was CYL/CYL I had poor 25 yd. lead patterns with this combination (30% or so and patchy, led me to the jug choking). I must get more paper!

 

[BrownBear]

...it comes out to about 3 1/4 drams with that 1 1/4 oz. shot. I am thinking that I used too much powder and should have matched the weight of the shot load to the charge rather than the volume of the shot load to the charge.

To be clear, I'm using the same powder measure (90 grains) for both my 1f powder and for my shot. According to this handy chart here on the site, that's dropping 1 1/4 oz of shot, though I've never actually weighed it. When using 2f I use 80 grains, but still use that same 90 grain measure for the shot. It got too confusing to me in the heat of the moment to have two measures, which started my experiments with 1f a few years back.

I'm curious if your shotgun is the Navy arms 12 gauge SxS made by Pietta. That's what I have, but I'd always assumed the barrels were too thin for jug choking. If yours is the same I'd sure love to know who did the choke work for you!

BTW- This is the second Navy Arms/Pietta 12 gauge SxS I've owned. I had another back in the 1970's and 1980's and shot the heck out of it with lead. But when Alaska finally banned lead for waterfowl, I traded it off in a fit of frustration after unhappy experiments with steel and early Bismuth shot. And regretted it the next day. It took me a while to find a replacement, because my bud wasn't about to trade back. He still shoots the heck out of it.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Mr. BrownBear- Mine is a Navy Arms by Pietta. Mike Orlen choked the barrels. But you get good results already with your gun.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Hi Brownbear!

You can get a pretty good idea of the wall thickness on your barrels with a dial caliper. Measure the bores at the muzzle, then measure the outside diameter a few times along the choke area, and divide by two because you've measured two walls. Pressures are much lower out there. I wouldn't want ream out to a wall thickness thinner than .030 inches.

(I did this on my 10 gauge Pedersoli and found that the walls were between .040 and .043. That didn't allow for much choke, especially in a 10 gauge, so I dropped the project.)

I would definitely go to Mike Orlen if I were going to try this, and would also get his advice. He has considerable respect for his barrel work among the high end doubles trade, and is reasonable. If he tells you he can go to .024 or something, I would fully trust him.

 

[ike]

Are you shooting with a shot cup or paper cup? If you are shooting without what does your barrel look like. I have heard in this post that ITX can harm the barrel. Thanks.

 

[BrownBear]

I have heard in this post that ITX can harm the barrel. Thanks.

I'm using it bare with no cup, no paper, nuthin.

Damage with the original is looking like a pure internet myth to me. I'm on my fourth bag of ITX now without any sign of problems. If it hasn't happened after shooting 3 bags (21 pounds) I'm inclined to believe it isn't going to happen.

Your gun, your computer and your choice of experts. I have the answer that suits me.

 

[Flintfan69]

If you shoot ITX without any sort of protection (i.e. shotcups), it will wear your barrel. You will not all of a sudden see streaks running down your barrel, like steel shot damage can do. Since ITX is soft, it will deform in you barrel to a degree, but the tungsten it contains is much harder than the steel of your barrel. The wear it causes would be similar to running fine sand paper down your barrel over time.

Since most muzzle loaders don't have chokes, the wear caused will probably go unnoticed by most users. I strongly recommend against using it in original guns that have any sort of collector value. However most people will believe, and do, what they want to. Just be aware of the facts before making your choice.

 

[BrownBear]

Point me and everyone else to the tests and technical reports on ITX that support your findings. I'd love to read them. Until then, this tale is busted.

 

[Flintfan69]

ITX contains powdered tungsten, as per documented from it's manufacturer.

If you want something a little more specific:

"The powdered tungsten, iron, and suspension binders of ITX Original 10 produces a pellet softer then the iron found in shotgun barrels"

From page 8 of Ballistic Products ITX shot manual, 8th edition.

Ballistic Products recommends ITX to only be loaded with specifically approved shot cups. There is a difference between the softness of the pellet, and it's abrasive properties.

Like I said, people are going to believe what they want. Do what you want with your gun, but please don't tell other people it won't harm their gun without knowing more facts.

 

[Historian]

Hi Y'all,
I have shot ITX alot. Since it first came out. Yes it is midly abrasive. You can pour some out in your hands and rub the shot together and feel the abrasiveness of it. It does feel like 800 to 1000 grit sandpaper. I patch mine or use RSI shotcups. While I think it might cause cosmetic damage over a long period of time I do not think it would cause any failure in the metal like I have personally seen with STEEL SHOT. Some of the loads from the current ITX manual use lead shot type wads such as the "Trap Commanders". However when you see them using brush wads that have no petals in some of the loads they almost always use a "Mylar Wrap"on top of that wad that incases the ITX Shot. At the end of the day you shoot the stuff as you see fit. It's good stuff for the price. Anyone can always call BPI and ask them for themselves.

Keep yur Powder Dry :wink:

 

[Firelock937]

I love ITX-10 in modern shotguns and have reloaded it for years now with no special wads or wraps to protect barrels. Would not hesitate to use it in a muzzleloader.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

I'll be interested to hear how it patterns for you compared to lead. In my guns it's enough better, it's almost like adding a some choke to the CYL bore.

Mr. BrownBear- I scrounged some large paper sheets and did just a few shots for pattern with #4 ITX today. Here are my results: (1 oz. of #4 ITX 10 shot which is 170 pellets and equivalent in pellet number to 1 1/4 oz. lead, 3 3/4 dr. Fg GOEX, 2 overshot cards and 1 overpowder card as per V. M. Starr) At 40 yards, the Improved Cylinder barrel printed 32.75% of the hits inside a 30" circle. At 40 yards the Modified barrel printed a 39.5% pattern. I shot once also at 25 yards in order to compare to previous lead shot patterns at this range. This result (same load and with the IC barrel): 53.5% of the pellets inside a 30" circle at this shorter range. 150 out of the 170 pellets loaded DID land within the 4' X 4' sheet of paper with this shot. By way of comparison previous lead shot targets ran from 61% to 78% patterns at 25 yards (I haven't shot lead at 40 yards yet). The shot size with lead has been #6 and #5 so far though, so I can't provide at this time a closer comparison to the #4 ITX. Too few targets to make a definite statement, but it looks like to me that with my jug-choked Navy 12 gauge the ITX shot is showing a poorer patterning than with lead shot. I didn't expect this :hmm: , and will experiment more with loads to see what might happen.

Some additional testing using 3 1/4 dram FF GOEX and 1 1/4 oz. #4 ITX (90 grains by volume powder and 110 grains by volume shot): 40yards modified choke barrel= 20% pattern in a 30" circle. 25 yards modified choke= 55% pattern. Oddly, 25 yards IC choke= 65% pattern, with almost all of the pellets on the 4'x4' paper. This is fine results with the IC choke and strange results with the Modified choke.

 

[BrownBear]

That is really strange! You've certainly resolved any lurking ambition I might have had for jug choking.

Thanks! :applause:

 

[Golfswithwolves]

Just to check I also shot good old #5 lead at 40 yards. IC choke=25% in 30" circle, Modified choke =50% in 30" circle with almost all pellets on 4'x4' paper. (25 yard lead patterns 61% to 78%)

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Years ago I messed with shot cups, plastic wads and a few other unconventional ideas.

Then it dawned on me, the reason I was attracted to muzzleloaders was the challenge of hunting and shooting 18th century firearm. Throwing 21st technology at it seemed to miss the objective.

Unfortunately the non-toxic shot regulations backed us into a corner. Either use it or not hunt waterfowl.

Still, if I am going to modify the bore, I may as well modify the lock and stock. Then I can drop a couple of powder pellets down the bore of my inline action.

Nope, I will stick with that silly cylinder bore and flintlock.

 

[smoothshooter]

They are probably not referring to muzzleloader barrels that are often made with the softer leaded steel. They are not a company that is very oriented to black powder shooting,( and that's okay ) and I doubt if any of their customer service people even know about leaded steel barrels.
I am assuming when they used the word " iron ", they meant " steel ".

Not weighing in on the merits of using the lead substitutes under discussion. Don't have any experience with them, except steel in shotgun shells.

Just commenting on B.P.'s comment on iron barrels.