J a n a , vintage identification

[sethwyo]

" . . . Poudre Nitro . . . "

I like the way that sounds

 

[TFoley]

Now to complicate things a "breach loading cannon" is actually a muzzle loader, and a Ferguson is a breach and muzzleloader at the same time

Dear Commodore Swab - you, Sir, are incorrect.

A breech-loading cannon, like the Whitworth, is definitely NOT any kind of a muzzle loader. First, the BREECHBLOCK is opened, the projectile is inserted into the barrel and engages the rifling, then the CHARGE is loaded behind it, and the BREECHBLOCK closed. The cannon charge is then pricked through the touchhole, and a cannon fusee inserted, which fired by a friction match.

By way of contrast, the Napoleon cannon, much used in your recent civil war, IS a muzzleloader, with the charge pushed down the barrel from the muzzle into the BREECH, followed by the ball or shot of some kind.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Dear Commodore Swab - you, Sir, are incorrect.

A breech-loading cannon, like the Whitworth, is definitely NOT any kind of a muzzle loader. First, the BREECHBLOCK is opened, the projectile is inserted into the barrel and engages the rifling, then the CHARGE is loaded behind it, and the BREECHBLOCK closed. The cannon charge is then pricked through the touchhole, and a cannon fusee inserted, which fired by a friction match.

By way of contrast, the Napoleon cannon, much used in your recent civil war, IS a muzzleloader, with the charge pushed down the barrel from the muzzle into the BREECH, followed by the ball or shot of some kind.

Absolutly correct. I was referring to the much earlier cannons that had breach blocks containing the charge inserted yet are often refered to as breach loading cannons. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[rickpa]

" . . . Poudre Nitro . . . "

I like the way that sounds

I believe I got my French and Italian mixed up. LOL. T.Foley has the right term.

 

[TFoley]

Absolutly correct. I was referring to the much earlier cannons that had breach blocks containing the charge inserted yet are often refered to as breach loading cannons. Sorry for the confusion.

Sir, they WERE regarded as breech loading cannon! There is a fine re-enactment of an early 17th C swivel gun in operation on YT. Many of these early smaller cannon were mounted on the bulwarks of ships for defence, and the pre-loaded charges were shaped like large drinking mugs. The shot was put into the barrel, the 'jug' inserted and held in by a wedge and it was fired. There are a number of these guns in the museum of the 'Mary Rose', King Henry VIII's flagship that sank in the Solent in the 1530's.

See -

 

[Commodore Swab]

Sir, they WERE regarded as breech loading cannon!

Thus the confusion. If the "jug" is removed the cannon has no breach! The breach IS the "jug" and the "cannon" is more a barrel extension and mount for the "jug"/breach.

This "jug"/breach is loaded powder first then projectile the same as a muzzle loader. On a breach loading cannon as you specify

"A breech-loading cannon, like the Whitworth, is definitely NOT any kind of a muzzle loader. First, the BREECHBLOCK is opened, the projectile is inserted into the barrel"

An early cannon as you have shown has more in common with a revolver than a whitworth and is loaded like a revolver.

 

[TDM]

 

[TreeMan]

Thus the confusion. If the "jug" is removed the cannon has no breach! The breach IS the "jug" and the "cannon" is more a barrel extension and mount for the "jug"/breach.

This "jug"/breach is loaded powder first then projectile the same as a muzzle loader. On a breach loading cannon as you specify

"A breech-loading cannon, like the Whitworth, is definitely NOT any kind of a muzzle loader. First, the BREECHBLOCK is opened, the projectile is inserted into the barrel"

An early cannon as you have shown has more in common with a revolver than a whitworth and is loaded like a revolver.

Fellas the OP is Mega confused already. Adding this debate on his post is gonna cause heads to explode!!

 

[ppg1949]

Italian PN proof mark. Polere nera, Italian for “black powder”. The proof mark PN is from the Gardone Val Trompia proof house. It means each cylinder was tested to 30% over max load. CIP, Commision Permente Internationale and about six more words, was a commission regulating quality and control of proof testing in Europe.And that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

 

[TFoley]

Italian PN proof mark. Polere nera, Italian for “black powder”. The proof mark PN is from the Gardone Val Trompia proof house. It means each cylinder was tested to 30% over max load. CIP, Commision Permente Internationale and about six more words, was a commission regulating quality and control of proof testing in Europe.And that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

The CIP is still in existence. Every firearm and type of ammunition for civilian use, made by the fourteen member states/nations, must comply with the CIP data, and must be submitted to the proof houses in each nation - by law. Here in UK it was Henry VIII who set up the first proof house, in London, to ensure that his military forces were equipped with firearms that met certain standards. Italy did the same thing at around the same time in the centre of arms making - Brescia. Gardone Val Trompia is a large city in that province.

The USA does not have any kind of standard national or federal gun proof. The SAAMI documentation is advisory only, and its data is not enforceable like the data posted by the CIP. This is why every US-made firearm must be submitted for proof when it is imported into one of the CIP signature nations. US-made factory ammunition is likewise batch-submitted for testing before it can be sold here. Look for the CIP on the box....

 

[ppg1949]

The CIP is still in existence. Every firearm and type of ammunition for civilian use, made by the fourteen member states/nations, must comply with the CIP data, and must be submitted to the proof houses in each nation - by law. Here in UK it was Henry VIII who set up the first proof house, in London, to ensure that his military forces were equipped with firearms that met certain standards. Italy did the same thing at around the same time in the centre of arms making - Brescia. Gardone Val Trompia is a large city in that province.

The USA does not have any kind of standard national or federal gun proof. The SAAMI documentation is advisory only, and its data is not enforceable like the data posted by the CIP. This is why every US-made firearm must be submitted for proof when it is imported into one of the CIP signature nations. US-made factory ammunition is likewise batch-submitted for testing before it can be sold here. Look for the CIP on the box....

Thanks TAC for the update on CIP. Henry VIII did a lot of things besides seek to have a male heir through a succession of wives.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

This has to be a parody lol. What in the name of Jed Clampett are you talking about!? I’m gonna opt out of this conversation before I have to start drinking enough to figure this out.

Chat GPT bot.

 

[sethwyo]

Stamps on one of the Belgian 1860 m armys.
No pm stamp, one stamp on cylinder, one on the frame an one on the tube that looks like an arrow.

 

[sethwyo]

I can't get a better picture of the stamp on the cylinder
It looks like four letters or numbers in a circle

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

I can't get a better picture of the stamp on the cylinder
It looks like four letters or numbers in a circle

Should be ELG and a star.

 

[TFoley]

All the proof marks are Belgian - Liége Proof House, to be precise. The oval with the letters and star reads ELG - EPRÉUVE LIÉGE. The 'arrow' is the Perron, a Liége landmark.

You already know it's Belgian - you wrote 'belgum'. So what are you now asking for?

 

[sethwyo]

Partially just sharing with other folks that are interested in these.
any information they have of personality traits, such as the year it was made are welcome to be shared.

 

[TFoley]

Partially just sharing with other folks that are interested in these.
any information they have of personality traits, such as the year it was made are welcome to be shared.

Unlike the Italian makers, who use a date code to establish the date of proof, Belgium does not have any definite way of establishing it. I don't understand what you mean by 'personality traits' - it's a replica Colt revolver. What are you attempting to achieve? Perhaps my poor grasp of English is hindering me here, and I'm missing something that is obvious to a native English speaker.

 

[sethwyo]

Don't worry about it.
Myself and a some others are having some fun here. Nothing for anybody to get in a worry about.

 

[TreeMan]

Unlike the Italian makers, who use a date code to establish the date of proof, Belgium does not have any definite way of establishing it. I don't understand what you mean by 'personality traits' - it's a replica Colt revolver. What are you attempting to achieve? Perhaps my poor grasp of English is hindering me here, and I'm missing something that is obvious to a native English speaker.

Most of his posts are equivalent to gibberish. Read the start of this particular topic. Someone else commented that the comments are AI generated nonsense lol. Beats me what he’s trying to get at. Here is a reply he posted December 10th.

What’s does this even mean??

“Quote” Can you imagine loading a cap and ball revolver by pouring the powder down the barrel into the cylinder and then using a footlong ram rod to drive a ball through the barrel into the cylinder . . .

“Quote” I recently read an article how soldiers did not like colts revolving rifle because they were scared of chain fires and they refused to use them,
I wonder if anyone pointed out they could still load one round in the cylinder and spin it into place with the barrel thus eliminating the risk of a chain fire (which probably was not really a problem) and still be able to load a round a lot faster than having to dump powder and ram a ball all the way down the barrel into the end of the barrel.
The breach is the back of the gun,
The bullets are loaded in the breach.
I figure, It is a breech loader. And getting near 200 years now they've been successful and a heap of fun