Jamestown archaeological excavation of a pistol

[TobJohn]

Have you come across any roman lock guns with a comparable lock plate/stock late 1500's early 1600's?

Or it broke and nobody could fix it. Or got frustrated trying to fix it . . .

There are multiple handgonnes and hookguns from the 1400s that have been found in moats because they were damaged and it was the first place someone thought to toss them. Could be a similar situation.

 

[SPQR70AD]

some sandpaper wood filler beeswax and bluing salts I would have that gun looking like new again

 

[BuffaloSoldier]

Wow, what a find!!

 

[1950DAVE]

try this. I had to dig deeper to find it. Notice in the first few seconds that he mentions that it is part 4 of a 3 part series.

 

[rickystl]

Thanks Dave.

Rick

 

[azmntman]

Kibler kit soon available

 

[The Miner '49er]

Thank you, XVIIcWheelock, that was an extremely interesting series of videos. Wife and I visited Jamestown several years ago and the grounds and museum area were fantastic. The new gun exhibit makes me want to return even more.

 

[William Lincoln]

When the Colony was overrun did the owner wind up in
the well also? For those days that would be a valuable piece
that would not be abandoned unless you are running for
your life.

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

When the Colony was overrun did the owner wind up in
the well also? For those days that would be a valuable piece
that would not be abandoned unless you are running for
your life.

Very good point!

 

[Commodore Swab]

REF: Post #16

Hi Swab. No, I have never seen a Roman style lock with that style of lock plate. Nor an Italian pistol with that fish-style butt stock. A first for me. Good observation. But I do recall seeing this style of lock plate on early "Spanish" style miquelet locks. So it could be a bit of a hybrid of both (?) I'm fairly certain I don't have a Spanish lock in my collection with this style of lock plate. But I'll check again.
The fish tail style stock is a head-scratcher. Hmmmm. But if we are indeed looking at a pistol from the early 17th Century, could be. A carry-over style from the wheellock.

Rick

The stock is very Scottish in nature, this one made for a duke circa 1616 (lefty). I have seen others but never with external main spring. Seeing him talk as though it is a "common roman lock" I would love to see him show another like it that has survived.

 

[TobJohn]

The stock is very Scottish in nature, this one made for a duke circa 1616 (lefty). I have seen others but never with external main spring. Seeing him talk as though it is a "common roman lock" I would love to see him show another like it that has survived.

I have seen multiple examples of Scottish pistols with left hand locks. I wonder why these seem to be some of the only muzzleloaders with this accommodation?

A photo I took at the Royal Armouries over the summer

 

[Jay Templin]

When they arrived on Jamestown Island in May 1607, John Smith tells us that they dug the well “six or seven fathoms” deep. By midsummer, saltwater had backed into the well (the haliocline in the river shifts by as much as a mile) and they filled it with trash and buried it. The second and third wells suffered the same fate. At one point that summer George Percy tells us that they’ve been reduced to drinking “water taken out of the river, which was at a flood very salt, at a low tide full of slime and filth, which was the destruction of many of our men.” Filling abandoned wells with trash was a common practice in England and Virginia at the time, although the Roman lock pistol seems to be from the lower level of the 1611 well that Lord de la Warre ordered replaced with a pump. The archaeological team posit that it was accidentally deposited, based on their assumption that it was functioning properly when lost, and a piece of a halberd bent into a crude hook like shape found in the well, which they guess could have been used to try to recover the pistol. It’s unlikely to have been an attempt to “dispose of evidence” as some have speculated, as we have no record of any firearm-related killings of Englishmen at Jamestown and it’s unlikely someone would have reloaded before dropping the gun into the well. The first known altercation with pistols at Jamestown was the duel between captains Eppes and Stallinge in 1619.

The first gunsmith at Jamestown was Peter Keffer, who arrived on the Phœnix in 1608. Parts of snaphaunce pistols including a cock, a whole lock, and a barrel have been found in contexts (such as a post mold in the southern palisade) which indicate that they were lost or discarded before his arrival. We also know that when the colonists attempted to abandon the site in 1610, equipment that they couldn’t take and wanted to keep from the Indians was buried, including in the well.
Jay

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

Jay your thoughts make perfect sense! Someone leaned over the well perhaps to retrieve the bucket, with the pistol as an arm length extension, it slipped and accidentally fell into the well and they tried to recover it (knowing the well was 60/70 feet deep) with the bent halberd as a hook perhaps with a piece of cord tied to the end..may have slipped off (which was also discovered) and it fell into the well also. Thank you for your insight!! I take your side!

You obviously live very close to the Jamestown site??

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Yes, so many questions about why and when it was thrown into the well, back then you would think that was a very valuable piece.

 

[Felonious]

I lived pretty close to Jamestown I was young, and took quite a few school field trips there. Now that I'm interested in historical stuff, I wish I paid a little bit more attention, it's a very cool site.

 

[Henry Elwood]

Greetings,
This is some good information. Back when in my Prehistory class the instructor said they used Duco cement and Acetone to stabilize findings. In the video he said they use Paraboid B72 with Acetone. I'll be looking into that further. Always good to have current information.
Thanks,Hank

 

[Whitworth]

That was quite interesting. Thanks

 

[PathfinderNC]

When they arrived on Jamestown Island in May 1607, John Smith tells us that they dug the well “six or seven fathoms” deep. By midsummer, saltwater had backed into the well (the haliocline in the river shifts by as much as a mile) and they filled it with trash and buried it. The second and third wells suffered the same fate. At one point that summer George Percy tells us that they’ve been reduced to drinking “water taken out of the river, which was at a flood very salt, at a low tide full of slime and filth, which was the destruction of many of our men.” Filling abandoned wells with trash was a common practice in England and Virginia at the time, although the Roman lock pistol seems to be from the lower level of the 1611 well that Lord de la Warre ordered replaced with a pump. The archaeological team posit that it was accidentally deposited, based on their assumption that it was functioning properly when lost, and a piece of a halberd bent into a crude hook like shape found in the well, which they guess could have been used to try to recover the pistol. It’s unlikely to have been an attempt to “dispose of evidence” as some have speculated, as we have no record of any firearm-related killings of Englishmen at Jamestown and it’s unlikely someone would have reloaded before dropping the gun into the well. The first known altercation with pistols at Jamestown was the duel between captains Eppes and Stallinge in 1619.

The first gunsmith at Jamestown was Peter Keffer, who arrived on the Phœnix in 1608. Parts of snaphaunce pistols including a cock, a whole lock, and a barrel have been found in contexts (such as a post mold in the southern palisade) which indicate that they were lost or discarded before his arrival. We also know that when the colonists attempted to abandon the site in 1610, equipment that they couldn’t take and wanted to keep from the Indians was buried, including in the well.
Jay

Thanks Jay- it is great that you can provide your invaluable research with us here

 

[XVIIc Wheelock]

Here is the Jamestown video discovery of the halberd bent into a hook...perhaps used trying to recover the pistol.

 

[1950DAVE]

The archaeological team posit that it was accidentally deposited, based on their assumption that it was functioning properly when lost, and a piece of a halberd bent into a crude hook like shape found in the well, which they guess could have been used to try to recover the pistol. It’s unlikely to have been an attempt to “dispose of evidence” as some have speculated, as we have no record of any firearm-related killings of Englishmen at Jamestown and it’s unlikely someone would have reloaded before dropping the gun into the well.

Just a thought about this. Would not a reasonable person have used the same technology to retrieve a valuable item such as a firearm as was used to dig a well. Think ladder. Too many times people over think, at least that’s what I think.