Jeremiah Johnson Hawken

[Herb]

Here is Jim Bridger's Hawken muzzle in the museum at Helena, MT. I handled, measured and photographed this rifle in September, 2013. Johnson's rifle has the same muzzle treatment.

This is a J&S Hawken muzzle also in the same museum. The muzzle is relieved such that the rifling is filed down even with the bottom of the grooves, and then the grooves are filed back in, is how I do it. This opens the muzzle such that a patched ball will start into the bore. This "cone" looks to be only about 1/4 inch long. ll Hawken muzzles I have seen or in photos have a muzzle treatment, but no "crown".

 

[Herb]

My keyboard does not print a capital A with the right Shift. Last sentence should read "ALL Hawken muzzles.....".

 

[Herb]

I cropped LEJ's muzzle photo.

 

[Cowboy]

Thank you Herb. Appreciate your research on these guns and definitely love the pictures as well!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[fourbore]

My understanding is that most if not all of Samuel Hawkins rifles were 1 in 48 inch twist barrels. Do not know where I got this info.

As a new member I find this very interesting. New to the forum and limited in accurate historic knowledge. I read a lot of posts here disparaging the T/C 1:48 twist. Too the point of re-boring to 1:60. If not for performance then for historical reasons or both. Now, 1:48 is historically accurate. We have come full circle.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The rifling machine in the Hawken shop had one twist rate and that was 1 in 48".

We disparage the T/C 1 in 48 twist because the depth of the button rifling is very shallow compared to the cut rifling used by builders such as the Hawken brothers.

 

[Herb]

Cowboy, thanks for taking the photos of the rifles in the new displays. It takes a lot of effort to do that, I appreciate that you did!

 

[Cowboy]

Herb, Always enjoyed your in depth knowledge and pictures that you’ve provided through the years on Hawken Rifle’s.

There are very few that I can think of with your insight on these rifles. You and Phil are two men that I definitely admire, and love to follow when the subject of the Hawken rifle is ever brought up.

Also enjoy looking at the Hawken rifle’s that you’ve built through the years too!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Thagomizer]

To all:

Discussing political issues can only be done in the Premium Members area. It is against the forum rules to talk about it elsewhere.

My apologies-it appears that I was the first one to see the location as Illinois and go down the rabbit hole. I will try to keep to the rules.

 

[beardedhorse]

The Mariano Modena half stock Hawken was rebored from .54 to about .58 and is one twist in the barrel length - less than 1 in 39. Don't know if it was originally 1 in 48 twist. It is slightly swamped or narrower at the waist. In the Jim Gordon Museum. A good number of Hawkens there if one were to examine rifling in all. Was this for a slug or conical or sugar loaf bullet? Bill Large barrel I have is smaller than .54 and 1 in 48 twist with deep rifling. Have a feeling it will only shoot well with a specific powder charge and require a thick patch. Have .526 Lyman mold but searching for .520. Can experiment with patching material. I think a lot of the Green River Rifle Works barrels from Bill's machinery are also 1 in 48 and deep rifling. Doc White would know.
The TC's with a 1 in 48 twist is a compromise (poor in my opinion) between round balls and Maxi balls. The Maxi Balls work better with the shallow grooves. Acceptable hunting accuracy with round balls for 50 yards or less with the single, simple trigger in the .54 caliber White Mountain carbine. Very crude lock with no fly in the tumbler. The TC Hawkens have double set triggers I find rough.

 

[fourbore]

My limited experience with the maxiball was they made an effective round. I guess the laws of physics have changed and 100% pass through from any angle is not enough? Sarcasm aside, what happened? I dont know if one can even purchase those little yellow boxes of lubed maxiballs. It got the job done back in my time. I get the simplicity and economy of round balls. And with enough size they got to kill real good. What I dont get is why, all of a sudden, I wake up from my sleep and learn maxiballs are bad. How is 1:48 a compromise, when I though it was optimum for a maxiball size projectile? If maxiballs work better with shallow grooves then why are shallow grooves a problem? For the record TC did offer slow twist barrels in some models for states that required round balls. That was an option.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Shallow grooves are a problem with patched round ball. You need a very tight patch and ball combination for the patch to properly grip the ball and the rifling. Then you get some spin on the ball for stabilization.

The slow twist T/C barrels came from their custom shop and were not a factory option.

Lyman still makes the 45 and 50 caliber maxiball molds. I think with some searching, you can find vendors who sell maxiballs.

 

[Walkingeagle]

I own a couple round ball long rifles with grooves so shallow they are hardly visible, yet they shoot a prb very well. Also lots of folks on here prefer a prb loose enough you dont require a mallet to start or excessive force to seat. I dont think a real tight fit is necessary.
Walk

 

[fishmanbeene]

LOL, don’t care much for any kind of liver.....Yes, also being born and raised in NJ, we surely do get a bad wrap. A genuine misconception, the area I live in was flush with deer, small game, and ducks. It’s been decades since I left. It certainly may have changed since, but it was a young kids paradise for hunting and fishing. Crummy photo, but my very first buck taken in NJ in the 70’s with a 50 cal TC Hawken I made from a kit. Back then it was shotgun/muzzleloader only. I understood why Jeremiah was so excited when he found Hatchett Jack froze to a tree with his 50cal Hawken.
View attachment 25405

I spent 5 glorious months in NJ back in 86-87. Loved the country saw lots of game and although I was almost always carrying a rifle, I never got to shoot at anything. Dang Drill Sargents!

 

[fourbore]

..snip..
The slow twist T/C barrels came from their custom shop and were not a factory option. ..snip..

I see 4 models in catalog 21 (1994) with 1:66 twist, two flint and two percussion.

I dont view 1:48 as a compromise. The gun and lubed maxiballs sold together. As were 1:66 guns and round balls. The right gun for the right purpose.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thank you for providing the correction. I knew of the custom shop and the Green Mountain instant change barrels.

 

[fourbore]

Sure, I hope not to sound too forward. I have a sentimental soft spot for T/C side locks warts and all.

 

[1861colt]

I conversed with a fella back in the 80's that was a descendant of John (liver-eating) Johnston. He stumbled across my advertising of making J Henry Scrollguard trade rifles then and he saw I had the same last name as George Fredrick Ruxton. There was a relocation that took place of the burial site where John Johnston was interned, I think because of a new freeway or something. Anyway, they had a parade and ceremony connected with the relocation. My friend got to carry John Johnston's Hawken in the parade. He was one lucky fella. Unfortunately, he didn't have any pictures, or maybe I didnt think to ask for one. That was back when letters were the form of communicating and you had to remember for a whole week what was last discussed.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks to Cowboy for starting this interesting thread.

It would be great if one of you guys with the knowledge would write an article about Hawken barrels for Muzzleloader. I have heard that they were just about always rifled at one turn in 48", and the original Hawken rifling guide is said to be still in existence. I've always wondered why one turn in 48" worked so well for the people who depended on these rifles, but hobbyists now need a slower twist. Go figure!

Those photos of Hawken muzzles appear to show very narrow grooves and wide lands. It seems to me that modern muzzleloading barrels have wider grooves. Hawken barrels were also said to have had a bit of choke in the bore, in addition to the relief Herb described at the muzzle. I don't know of any barrel makers who do this now.

Finally, the Baird book said Hawken barrels (like most barrels of the time, I think) were made of "dead iron," meaning very soft wrought iron. Since childhood, I have had a book by Stewart Edward White about Daniel Boone. The author devoted a whole chapter to a discussion of the rifles and axes of the 18th century frontier, and he made it a point to mention the soft iron barrels. There is also a good interview with Brad Emig of Cabin Creek Muzzleloading in the current issue of Muzzleloader magazine, in which they discuss the use of wrought iron as a superior material for barrels... Less "whip," better wearing characteristics, and more forgiving of minor variances in the load.

Regarding the John Johnston rifle, I looked it up a while back and found this picture:

...and some detail photos of that famous knife:

Interestingly, October Country used to offer a rifle they called the "Liver Eatin' Johnson Rifle." Mike Nesbitt wrote a couple of very favorable reviews. I believe it had L&R triggers, lock, breech and tang, and adjustable rear sight, and a Green Mountain barrel. The furniture was German silver, and it had a poured nose cap.

I thought the name October Country selected for this rifle was peculiar, since the actual Hawken carried by Johnston is still extant, and October Country's rifle, fine though it was, didn't really look anything like it. I don't see this rifle on the October Country website any longer. I guess it was discontinued, which is too bad. It looked like a fine example of a plains rifle, despite the odd choice of name.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[fourbore]

I've always wondered why one turn in 48" worked so well for the people who depended on these rifles, but hobbyists now need a slower twist. Go figure!

My theory is that this 'need' is a swing of the internet pendulum. At one time, in the not so distant past, I would read about some gun with a false muzzle shooting 500 grain 45 cal bullets. ( All info came form books and magazine reviews back then. ) Longest range, most accuracy and killing power - bullets. You had TC promoting the maxiball for power, ease of loading, etc. And believe me those worked. A few states mandated patched round balls and it was assumed that was a big handicap. The ball got a bad rap when it has pro's and con's. When the internet come to life those in the know push back hard for the ball. That is good. More choices to embrace. Both work.