Jim Bridger .58 Hawken

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oldwolf

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Can any one tell me about the Jim Bridger Hawken available form TOW? The .58 it seems is a rather large gun with a barrel having 1 1/8" flats. I am sure it is a premium quality rifle but I was wondering if it can be loaded like the old Navy Arms Hurricane .58 Hawken. I believe that one was rated for greater than 150gr of powder with a conical projectile yielding quite nearly 3000 ft lbs muzzle energy. Thanks you very much. :thumbsup:
 
I believe it is rifled with a slow twist deep groove barrel for PRB.

Not sure if it would stabilize conicals well?
 
I have the same rifle you refer to but like the Professor, I am not sure wheather or not it would stabilize the conical.

I can tell you that it is solid! I have shot two patched roundballs on top of 120grns of 2Fg with no problem at all and wouldn't be afraid to put alot more powder and do the same.

rabbit03
 
I built that rifle,sort of, I mixed the early fullstock with the 1 1/8 barrel, I have a .50 for it and also a second barrel in .62. But both are roundball barrels. I love mine, I dont shoot much else cept the smoothbore for turkeys.
 
oldwolf said:
Can any one tell me about the Jim Bridger Hawken available form TOW? The .58 it seems is a rather large gun with a barrel having 1 1/8" flats. I am sure it is a premium quality rifle but I was wondering if it can be loaded like the old Navy Arms Hurricane .58 Hawken. I believe that one was rated for greater than 150gr of powder with a conical projectile yielding quite nearly 3000 ft lbs muzzle energy. Thanks you very much. :thumbsup:
if you get the tapered barrel one these are
the barrel spec's
Colerain barrels are cut rifled with fancy radius groove rifling, in these correct twist rates for round balls:



1 turn in 56 inch twist, in calibers .50 and .54

1 turn in 66 inch twist, in calibers .58 and .62
the 1 in 66 will shoot a mini. the straight barrel has a 1 in 70 twist.
bernie :thumbsup: [url] http://www.trackofthewolf.com...um=KIT-JIM-BRIDGER-HAWKEN-TAPERED-BARREL[/url]
 
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It is my understand that Old Gabe shot a hawken that was either .53, or .54 caliber, depending on sources, and not .58 caliber. I understand his rifle is still on display in a mueum out west, along with his possible bag, horn, and hand made powder measure. Someone else' memory is going to have to tell us which museum its in. Someone said its at his rebuilt fort, in Wyoming, but someone else said its at the Museum of the Fur Trade, in Nebraska.

Considering how the curved buttplate is intended to be fired off the upper arm( above your bicep), I don't think you want to volunteer to shoot many 150 grain charges out of such a gun, much less be packing two .58 caliber round ball in the barrel and firing. Those are " Proof loads ". and were never intended to be used off the shoulder.

A piece on his gun and powder measure appeared in Muzzle Blasts back in the late 1980s, or early 1990s, and indicated that his powder measure threw 50 grains of FFg powder. This for a .54 caliber gun. In an interview with the man in his later years, after he went blind from cateracts, Bridger said he used one measure when shooting deer, and antelope. He used two measures to shoot Elk and Black Bear, and three measures to shoot Grizzley and Buffalo. He also explained that his reasoning was so he could recover the lead balls , and recast them, as hauling enough lead around was a serious problem for men who trapped and hunted for a full year between supply sources, mainly at rendezvous.

I have my doubts about the writer of this story. I think Gabe used whatever was in the barrel to shoot whatever he came across. Yes, he may actually have planned to hunt a particular animal, and then could choose how much powder he would load in the gun. But, most of the time, I suspect he loaded his gun for what he thought he might find in the area. I doubt that he purposely hunted Grizzly bear, since they are such tough animals to kill, and were well respected for their courage, and willingness to attack a hunter if he did not kill the bear with his first shot, even when mortally wounded. Bridger's time around buffalo would also have been limited. There were no trains to take hides to market, so when he shot Buffalo, it was for food. The mountain men preferred to shoot the calfs, because the meat was sweeter, more tender, and the tongues were excellent fare.

If you have never eaten beaver, its the closest meat to taste like Beef you are likely to find. I can see how the mountain men got tired of eating beaver, and even venison, and looked for something different. They all write well of eating mountain lion, and considered it a great treat.
 
hawken-bridger.jpg


Montana Historical Society. The museum claims that it is a .50 caliber Hawken. He wanted a thirty but...it was a jen u wine Hawken. :rotf:

It is purported to be 34" long barrel and some have stated it is a 33 1/8th" long barrel. Probably depends on who was measuring and from what point to what point.

Due to the coning that was common in these original Hawken rifles...it may appear to some to be a .54 or better caliber.
 
good info there Cooner. I thought he had a larger-bore rifle but he may (probably did) have owned more than one. I once shot a concrete block with my .50 using a PRB and 100 grs. this was the real concrete not cinder. it knocked it into pieces at about 20 yards. so to my opine a .50 has some whomp to it.
 
By the wee, Old Wolf. These Hawkens were almost exclusively 1 in 48" twisted barrels. It has also been reported in period docs that at least one ol mountainny man by the name a Drinker shot conicals in his Hawken. The modern slower twist and sometimes shallower rifling will not perform this duel role as a RB/Conical rifled gun as the originals did. You may want to get a custom barrel from Ed Rayl if ya want a Hawken barrel with the same depth of rifling and the same rate of twist. He will cone it for you if you ask him to.
 
Another thought: this is pure conjecture on my part. If Bridger was shooting conicals in his rifle the 50 gr. charge would work out about right. The same 50 grain charge would work for roundball loads if doubled to 100 grs. 50 grs. in a 50 caliber rifle out west would be for shooting rabbits on a windy day. 100grains in a 50 with a round ball would work for buffalo, deer, and even bears if the shot was placed right.
 
Cooner 54: Thank you for the information on where the gun is located.

As to use of the 50grain charge, rabbits were killed with sticks, not with guns. Again, the major concern in the early 1820s, through late 1830s, was the need to conserve both powder and lead, because both were so difficult to replace. Bridger was an excellent tracker, as well as a good stalker and shooter. He could put a ball into game where it need to go to kill the animal quickly, while leaving the ball INSIDE the animal so that it could be recovered and re-cast. Using a 50 grain charge on deer made sure he could recover his lead ball and re-use it. Using a " Light " powder charge by today's standards conserved his limited powder supply, reduced the sound of the report of the gun being fired, so as not to alert any hostile Indians in the area, and limited the penetration of the ball Through the deer. He was following tracks, not blood trails. In fact, he didn't want a blood trail, as it is too easily seen by hostiles which would make him the focus of a hunt and attack.

I am surprised to hear its a .50, but your comment about the coning explains the other accounts very well. I have to laugh. For years, everyone thought this most famous Mountain Man used a .54, and that is what has driven so many modern shooters to insist on that caliber in a Hawken replica. The .50 actually makes more sense, as a 50 grain charge of powder in a .50 is not such a small charge at all.
 
I think that when we read "double charged" in the old accounts they are talking a double measure of powder in their rifles. The powder measures from the 18th and 19th century are almost all under 80 grain size capacity. Most much smaller than that. The frontier rifles were always bigger bore from east to west no matter the style of rifle or decade.
I was using the term rabbit load as tongue in cheek. I doubt many in the west used 50 grains as a load for any meat of "big game" size. If you live out here in the windy western states you would figure that out muy pronto. But, like I said, it is conjecture on my part as it is yours. I have found no documentation where an old time frontiersman ever said what charge of powder he used. Just the mention of double charging has been mentioned in several accounts that I have read over the years.
 
Bridger's time around buffalo would also have been limited. There were no trains to take hides to market, so when he shot Buffalo, it was for food.
Not necessarily - The buffalo robe trade was in full swing by the mid-1830's - thousands of dressed, hair on hides were being sent east by that time.....

FWIW - The Bridger Hawken pictured above is a mid-1850's model, Jim carried it in his duties as a scout for the army - he sold it in 1865. While it is a 50 caliber, the 54 caliber as well as 58 caliber (which used the common trade ball the same as used in the NW guns) rifles were in wide use during the pre-1840 fur trade as well as later, lots of extant examples and documentation....
 
Oldwolf:

Back to the original question. The kit is fun to build, if a little touchy in assembly(half stock stuff). The finished product is a hoot to shoot. I got one of the Goodion 60 cal tapered barrels. I shoot about 70 grain at 50 yards - offhand. Not a lot of kick. Just for fun I have loaded 120 grain - now that is a bit of a kick, but I target shoot mostly so - 70 is a fine all day shooting load. The weight of the gun absorbs a lot of the recoil. Patched round ball by the way. Again, loved the kit - love the finished gun.

Mike F
 
As far as a Bridger Hawken goes, there seem to be a couple of these things floating around--the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale, WY has one as well. Of the two, the Montana one has the better documentable history. Maybe Bridger's rigfle is sort of like Jesse James' pistol? Fort Bridger has a powder horn reputed to be Bridger's. By the way, I've always wondered what Bridger used for a rifle after he sold the above illustrated one to Pierre Chien. He was still scouting for the army at the time, maybe he got his hands on a Henry, Spencer or '66 Springfield?

Rod
 
You have a Hawken Hunter and Hurricane. None of which is like the TOW Hawken at all. The best of the Hunter will get is 2700 me with 150grs of "Pyrodex" :barf: and a and a Shilo Stakebuster of 625 grs. Hurricane takes lots less. With a PRB and 140 grs of 2f its 1483. I've wrote about Fuller up in Alaska useing his org Hawken to kill a bear ( black I think) that was looking in his window one night, if I remember right 200 grs 2f and something like a 53 cal PRB laid old bear flat. If ya want to use a mini/maxi in a 1x66 barrel make sure it has a short body (nose can be whatever) something like a bal-et they work well in most rifles (once long ago I wouldn't hoot a PRB to save my life just took to long to load, ya get older and smarter and now PRB's is all I shoot, true sometimes 2 at once out of a 62 cal but that another story :rotf: ) Fred :hatsoff:
 
Well...I kinda thought if I was going to build a Bridger Hawken I would opt for a powerhouse (magnum of sorts) rifle. I am unclear still if the 1.125" barrel flats add any additional powder capacity due to the extra steel though. The 1:66 twist would still stabilize PRB at a high velocity in all likelihood.

A .62 RB (.610" = 342 gr)would have to be driven at a MV of nearly 2000 fps to achieve that magical number of 3000 ft lbs ME. Is that possible with a .62 caliber, 1.125" across the flats, 36" long barrel?

Likely a .58 PRB could not achieve this ME.
 
My kid knew that mag was one f the ones I keep up fron since I cant get out of bed..so the org Hawken uesd by Fuller in 1969 shot a 52 ball and 200 grs Du Pont leaving a 2' hole in that bear. Before getting laid out I was gong home to Alaska and get this bear (wont be going now) and useing a 62 underhammer, why ? I could load up in the smooth barrel 100 grs 2 and 3 .600 balls, should do the trick huh? But ya got to be close, like 30 yards clos for a good killing shot,and the way I got 5this uh fixed I can swap to a loaded barrel in under 10 seconds to a rifled 62 with a Foster slug, now wouldnt ya know it the bear is faster than that. Soooo useing the Alaskan Guide service I came up with a few winners as a friend of Fullers uses as a back up rifle when the guy he's taken out messes up. He was useing Fuller's first copy of a Hawken to hunt mose he got a Boon and Crockett #41 wih 661/2 spread his load was 200grs of Du Pont and a PRB .560 it was a one shot kill at 223 yds.( Muzz Blast March 70). The real story here is the pic of the steel plate behind Fuller's place, All the holes and you can tell which are guide Art Smith's org 1864 Springfield, he likes 70 to 140 grs and a 476 minnie. They give a list of all he's shot the last 7 yrs and all have been one shot kills out to 150 yds. So..sounds like the 58 will work out just fine. ( I got one too but shot 100 or less) :haha: Fred :hatsoff: ( oh to answer what you asked,let the weight of the bullet do it for you and be a great shot, if you shoot that good then a faster 54 will work as good, but 58 is fun)"achieve that magical number of 3000 ft lbs ME" not sure what this has to do with anything, cut a artery at 20 fp and aanything will be dead as :cursing: soon enough. Muzzle loaading is a diferent game from other kinds of hunting, if your going to build your own rifle and a Hawken at that your sure on the right track,so take it slow and easy ,when your gun is done learn to hit what you want at 50 then 100 and your ready for it all.
 
Short answer is ya the extra metal helps, and ya can shoot short con's,450 to 500 should kill anything with one good shot. Fred :hatsoff:
 
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