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Just aqiured Hawken Rifle Help!!!!
- Thread starter tschie
- Start date
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Looks more "Hawken-ish" if the pictures from your earlier post are correct.
GRRW are usually marked as such on the top flat and there is usually a maker's mark near the breech on the side flat opposite the lock.
Gary White is still out there someplace and offers his own guns for sale. Maybe you could search him out on the internet.
GRRW guns can fetch a fair amount of folding money with Hawken models bringing a premium.
GRRW are usually marked as such on the top flat and there is usually a maker's mark near the breech on the side flat opposite the lock.
Gary White is still out there someplace and offers his own guns for sale. Maybe you could search him out on the internet.
GRRW guns can fetch a fair amount of folding money with Hawken models bringing a premium.
I don't know how you got the idea it's a Lehman Trade rifle, here's some photo's of a GRRW Lehman;
http://www.riverjunction.com/3034-GRRW-Leman-indian-trade-rifle_ep_115-1.html
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necchi said:
I kinda had the same reaction, but haven't seen enough of their Lehman's to peg it. Lotta differences from butt plate to muzzle.
Whatever name you can put on the style, it's still a fine rifle. Just guessing from the shorter barrel, prominent sights and single trigger, it was built first and foremost as a dedicated hunter. And it would be darned good at that job. Lots of promise for quick handling and balance.
What's the caliber, BTW?
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Oooooh...... Good point.
Yeah,
I'd like to get my hands on it an break it apart.
(a lot of us would)
Hooked breech, yet pinned barrel??
An the TC sights?? I wonder if that rear sight was removed if there's a dovetail under it?
I'm getting an idea that maybe someone got an olde GRRW or Hawken Shop rifle that had a damaged or broken stock and re-stocked the components from that??
They did a nice job,, but some things on the rifle just don't click for it to come from one of those shops.
I'd like to get my hands on it an break it apart.
(a lot of us would)
Hooked breech, yet pinned barrel??
An the TC sights?? I wonder if that rear sight was removed if there's a dovetail under it?
I'm getting an idea that maybe someone got an olde GRRW or Hawken Shop rifle that had a damaged or broken stock and re-stocked the components from that??
They did a nice job,, but some things on the rifle just don't click for it to come from one of those shops.
varsity07840
45 Cal.
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Your rifle is more Hawken than Leman. Leman used a scroll
type trigger guard. I've never seen a patent hooked breech
On a Leman. He used a simple drum set up on his percussion guns. Most Lemans were brass mounted.
Duaneh
type trigger guard. I've never seen a patent hooked breech
On a Leman. He used a simple drum set up on his percussion guns. Most Lemans were brass mounted.
Duaneh
Yeah, the Leman looked like this....Duane said:
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com...HMagxfv5FR_dnc2ATMHXVJOGLFqY99z2beudCxTqPYRqi
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv48/plmeek_photo/GRRW Collection/IMG_2442_crop_zps3f1591dc.jpg
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Here is Doc. Gary White's web site if you're interested. A whole lot of fine info there.
http://whitemuzzleloading.com/myweb2/images/whiterifles/default.htm
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plmeek
40 Cal.
shone73,
You've received some good info on the source of your rifle.
I respectively offer a few other comments and things to look for.
The "G. Roberts" engraved on the barrel could be the Greg Roberts that worked for Green River Rifle Works of Roosevlet, Utah. In the day, Roberts often marked his guns with an engraving of a bear paw as his makers mark like this one.
The absence of the makers mark does not rule out the GRRW Greg Roberts as the builder, but makes it less likely.
Another thing to check on the rifle is the number of lands and grooves. GRRW rifled their barrels with 7 lands/grooves. If your rifle has 7, it would strongly suggest it is a GRRW barrel and Greg Roberts was the builder. If it doesn't have 7 lands/grooves, then it likely wasn't made in the 1970's by a GRRW hand. Though, this doesn't rule out Greg Roberts building it at a later time.
The lock, and especially the hammer, looks like a Hawken lock of fairly recent manufacture from L&R. The L&R Hawken locks back in the late 1970's had a different hammer. This suggests to me that your rifle post-dates GRRW.
Naphtali mentioned Greg Roberts of The Hawken Shop in Oak Harbor, Washington, might be the signer. I agree that might be a possibility. Though not listed as a catalog item, I've seen one other full stock Hawken that was reportedly made by The Hawken Shop. You could send pictures of your rifle to him and ask him.
Your rifle appears to have a short barrel and only has one forward ramrod pipe. This suggests it has been shortened or was built to appear that it had been shortened.
Others pointed out the unusual single trigger set up. This is not what we typically expect on a Hawken rifle, but I know of a couple original Hawken rifles that have single triggers. Could have been someone's whim or could have been an effort to emulate one of these known originals.
The fit of the hooked breech to the tang is not as good as I've seen by GRRW riflesmiths. Another reason I would question whether it was that Greg Roberts.
On your request for some info on GRRW, they started operation in March of 1972 and were forced into bankruptcy in the fall of 1980. Greg Roberts was the General Manager during most of that time. GRRW are best known for the affordable half stock Leman rifles they called the Leman Trade Rifle, their half stock Hawken rifles, and their high quality barrel business. They made other models such as full stock Lemans and Hawkens, a Poor Boy (Southern Mtn rifle), and a Trappers Pistol.
The rifles that GRRW built in their first few years of operation were stamped with "GREEN RIVER RIFLE WORKS" over "ROOSEVELT, UTAH" on the top flat. The guns normally had the caliber and serial number stamped on the left oblique flat near the breech plug. The Leman Trade Rifle serial number started with 101, while the half stock Hawken serial number started with H-001. After a few years, the company stamp was changed to "GRRW" over the address. The "H" prefix was dropped from the Hawken serial number, and the individual riflesmiths started marking the barrels with their makers mark.
All factory finished GRRW guns had the company stamp and serial number somewhere on the barrel, usually on the visible flats, but sometimes on the bottom flats if requested by the customer. GRRW sold semi-finished or in-the-white rifles that also were serial numbered and usually had the company stamp and address. Lastly, they sold "basic" kits which were normally a parts set. These were not serial numbered and most often had no markings on the barrel other than the caliber stamp.
Some of the smiths built rifles on their own time to sell for their personal income. We see some of these rifles from time to time. They typically are made with GRRW parts and have the builders makers mark, but no company stamps or serial numbers. Some smiths continued to make GRRW like rifles after they left the company with parts they had accumulated while working there. The rifle that necchi linked to at River Junction is an example of one of these. A few smiths eventually formed businesses of their own and made rifles very similar to what GRRW had made such as Oregon Trail Riflesmiths.
Phil Meek
GRRW Collectors Association
You've received some good info on the source of your rifle.
I respectively offer a few other comments and things to look for.
The "G. Roberts" engraved on the barrel could be the Greg Roberts that worked for Green River Rifle Works of Roosevlet, Utah. In the day, Roberts often marked his guns with an engraving of a bear paw as his makers mark like this one.
The absence of the makers mark does not rule out the GRRW Greg Roberts as the builder, but makes it less likely.
Another thing to check on the rifle is the number of lands and grooves. GRRW rifled their barrels with 7 lands/grooves. If your rifle has 7, it would strongly suggest it is a GRRW barrel and Greg Roberts was the builder. If it doesn't have 7 lands/grooves, then it likely wasn't made in the 1970's by a GRRW hand. Though, this doesn't rule out Greg Roberts building it at a later time.
The lock, and especially the hammer, looks like a Hawken lock of fairly recent manufacture from L&R. The L&R Hawken locks back in the late 1970's had a different hammer. This suggests to me that your rifle post-dates GRRW.
Naphtali mentioned Greg Roberts of The Hawken Shop in Oak Harbor, Washington, might be the signer. I agree that might be a possibility. Though not listed as a catalog item, I've seen one other full stock Hawken that was reportedly made by The Hawken Shop. You could send pictures of your rifle to him and ask him.
Your rifle appears to have a short barrel and only has one forward ramrod pipe. This suggests it has been shortened or was built to appear that it had been shortened.
Others pointed out the unusual single trigger set up. This is not what we typically expect on a Hawken rifle, but I know of a couple original Hawken rifles that have single triggers. Could have been someone's whim or could have been an effort to emulate one of these known originals.
The fit of the hooked breech to the tang is not as good as I've seen by GRRW riflesmiths. Another reason I would question whether it was that Greg Roberts.
On your request for some info on GRRW, they started operation in March of 1972 and were forced into bankruptcy in the fall of 1980. Greg Roberts was the General Manager during most of that time. GRRW are best known for the affordable half stock Leman rifles they called the Leman Trade Rifle, their half stock Hawken rifles, and their high quality barrel business. They made other models such as full stock Lemans and Hawkens, a Poor Boy (Southern Mtn rifle), and a Trappers Pistol.
The rifles that GRRW built in their first few years of operation were stamped with "GREEN RIVER RIFLE WORKS" over "ROOSEVELT, UTAH" on the top flat. The guns normally had the caliber and serial number stamped on the left oblique flat near the breech plug. The Leman Trade Rifle serial number started with 101, while the half stock Hawken serial number started with H-001. After a few years, the company stamp was changed to "GRRW" over the address. The "H" prefix was dropped from the Hawken serial number, and the individual riflesmiths started marking the barrels with their makers mark.
All factory finished GRRW guns had the company stamp and serial number somewhere on the barrel, usually on the visible flats, but sometimes on the bottom flats if requested by the customer. GRRW sold semi-finished or in-the-white rifles that also were serial numbered and usually had the company stamp and address. Lastly, they sold "basic" kits which were normally a parts set. These were not serial numbered and most often had no markings on the barrel other than the caliber stamp.
Some of the smiths built rifles on their own time to sell for their personal income. We see some of these rifles from time to time. They typically are made with GRRW parts and have the builders makers mark, but no company stamps or serial numbers. Some smiths continued to make GRRW like rifles after they left the company with parts they had accumulated while working there. The rifle that necchi linked to at River Junction is an example of one of these. A few smiths eventually formed businesses of their own and made rifles very similar to what GRRW had made such as Oregon Trail Riflesmiths.
Phil Meek
GRRW Collectors Association
plmeek
40 Cal.
Be sure to count the number of lands and grooves in the rifling and go ahead and take the barrel out of the stock to check it for any hidden markings on the bottom side. Also, take off the lock and see if anything is marked on the inside of the lock plate. I'm curious if it is an L&R lock or not.
Thanks again for your help and the help of everyone else as well, it is much appreciated. I have added some more pictures. I believe you are right about the lock plate as there appears to be an "L" and "R" engraved on it.
There are 6 grooves and lands in the barrel. I also noticed some markings on the inside of the butt plate. I cannot make them out so maybe one of you recognize the markings? Thanks again guys I appreciate it. Also, I was hesitant to take the barrel off. I assume I just need to knock the pins out (very carefully) and that's it?
Old Album Http://imgur.com/a/kFgKX
New Album http://imgur.com/a/fYG33
Once again not the greatest pics, I keep running out of day light by the time I can get to it. I promise I'll get some better overall shots in the sun, especially if I get the barrel off.
There are 6 grooves and lands in the barrel. I also noticed some markings on the inside of the butt plate. I cannot make them out so maybe one of you recognize the markings? Thanks again guys I appreciate it. Also, I was hesitant to take the barrel off. I assume I just need to knock the pins out (very carefully) and that's it?
Old Album Http://imgur.com/a/kFgKX
New Album http://imgur.com/a/fYG33
Once again not the greatest pics, I keep running out of day light by the time I can get to it. I promise I'll get some better overall shots in the sun, especially if I get the barrel off.
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plmeek
40 Cal.
The 6 lands/grooves suggest it may be a Colerain barrel.
Agree an L&R lock.
The letters on the inside of the butt plate look like "BAL", but I don't recognize what that might mean.
No dovetails for the rear sight, so the TC sights are original to the rifle.
It is definitely not a GRRW rifle or one made from GRRW parts. Probably built in relatively recent times.
The "G" in the engraved name could stand for Greg or Gary or George or who knows what first name. Might not be the builder but an owner's name. I have a couple of GRRW rifles in my collection that have the owners name, in one case and initials in another, engraved on them.
To remove the barrel pins, you simply need a drift punch that is slightly smaller than the pin OD. Gently tap the pins from the right side to the left until they clear the barrel lugs, and gently lift the barrel at the muzzle from the stock. The breech is hooked to the tang, and the hook will clear once the muzzle is lifted up so the barrel is about a 30 to 45 degree angle to the stock.
Agree an L&R lock.
The letters on the inside of the butt plate look like "BAL", but I don't recognize what that might mean.
No dovetails for the rear sight, so the TC sights are original to the rifle.
It is definitely not a GRRW rifle or one made from GRRW parts. Probably built in relatively recent times.
The "G" in the engraved name could stand for Greg or Gary or George or who knows what first name. Might not be the builder but an owner's name. I have a couple of GRRW rifles in my collection that have the owners name, in one case and initials in another, engraved on them.
To remove the barrel pins, you simply need a drift punch that is slightly smaller than the pin OD. Gently tap the pins from the right side to the left until they clear the barrel lugs, and gently lift the barrel at the muzzle from the stock. The breech is hooked to the tang, and the hook will clear once the muzzle is lifted up so the barrel is about a 30 to 45 degree angle to the stock.
Thanks for your help, I was able to get the barrel off. No markings any where, stock or barrel. Any ideas?
http://imgur.com/a/em1kn
http://imgur.com/a/em1kn
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I think you have kind of run the rope out as far as it can go without finding someone who knows that particular rifle firsthand. Might contact the previous owner and see if he can help you backtrack to the workbench it came from.
