Just dont give up!

[ML48]

Tr

I respect the fellas work, but what if an airplane had to meet the same standards? Surely, something that is required to defy gravity, carry 200 folk, and has 10,000 moving parts is more complicated than a rifle? And can't afford to require a break in period? Machining is the science of getting it right straight off the bat. The voodoo side of our sport is half the fun, but we wouldn't have gone from the first steam engine to a drone-copter on Mars in 150 years if said voodoo was gospel. In a precision instrument the operator is the greatest variable.

Try rebuilding an engine and don't break in the cam. See how long it goes before you have a flat cam. Certain things require breakin. And if you don't think those jets, engines and so forth don't go through rigorous testing....good luck.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Tr

Try rebuilding an engine and don't break in the cam. See how long it goes before you have a flat cam. Certain things require breakin. And if you don't think those jets, engines and so forth don't go through rigorous testing....good luck.

True, but... the latest in aerospace tech is testing prior to the first part actually moving. Planes are torture tested before they even fly. Rebuilding an engine is a thing one did 20+ years ago. We might rebuild 20+ year old engines today, but lemme give you a different angle: I have owned two Dodge 1500s. Between them. I got 500,000 miles out of em. With just oil changes, a single manual transmission, and a single water pump. One was a 2001, the other was a 2012. That didn't happen because of break-in. It happened because of math and lubrication. Rebuilds are a thing of the past. Not a bad past, and not an obsolete past by any means, but a tube controlling an explosion until a projectile leaves it and reaches a target is childs-play compared to reaching the moon 52 years ago.

I don't dispute that some barrels might need a break-in. But, in 2021, if any barrel does require it, it's because someone isn't counting right, and/or isn't trying hard enough.

 

[J. Paul]

I respect the fellas work, but what if an airplane had to meet the same standards? Surely, something that is required to defy gravity, carry 200 folk, and has 10,000 moving parts is more complicated than a rifle? And can't afford to require a break in period? Machining is the science of getting it right straight off the bat. The voodoo side of our sport is half the fun, but we wouldn't have gone from the first steam engine to a drone-copter on Mars in 150 years if said voodoo was gospel. In a precision instrument the operator is the greatest variable.

Airplanes have test after test on all parts before the first completed plane goes to Market. Turbines are tested and torn down then tested to destruction on outside stands, wear patterns are checked and redesigned multiple times.
Big truck engines are ran at % of possible rpm and power output for a breaking period

 

[Cattywompuss]

Airplanes have test after test on all parts before the first completed plane goes to Market. Turbines are tested and torn down then tested to destruction on outside stands, wear patterns are checked and redesigned multiple times.
Big truck engines are ran at % of possible rpm and power output for a breaking period

You'll note I said that planes are torture tested before they fly. It was the second sentence in my last post.. But planes aren't given a break-in period. A part inspection isn't the same as break-in. Testing for design and tolerance isn't the same as breaking in. And a big diesel would appear to be an exception in this case.

My example was sound because it was extreme, thereby highlighting the extraordinary simplicity of a rifle barrel. We have literally hundreds of years on development and manufacturing. Yet we think we need 100 shots to make a rifle shoot, where a middling shooter can do the same with a $300 Walmart gun and one box of shells.

 

[ML48]

True, but... the latest in aerospace tech is testing prior to the first part actually moving. Planes are torture tested before they even fly. Rebuilding an engine is a thing one did 20+ years ago. We might rebuild 20+ year old engines today, but lemme give you a different angle: I have owned two Dodge 1500s. Between them. I got 500,000 miles out of em. With just oil changes, a single manual transmission, and a single water pump. One was a 2001, the other was a 2012. That didn't happen because of break-in. It happened because of math and lubrication. Rebuilds are a thing of the past. Not a bad past, and not an obsolete past by any means, but a tube controlling an explosion until a projectile leaves it and reaches a target is childs-play compared to reaching the moon 52 years ago.

I don't dispute that some barrels might need a break-in. But, in 2021, if any barrel does require it, it's because someone isn't counting right, and/or isn't trying hard enough.

Wow....you really are wrong. Engine rebuilding is a thing of the past, only for the uneducated, and unskilled. But when that engine was new it still had a break in period. I also had a Ford 5250 with a 5.4, sold it at 344,000 and the guy is still running it....what's the point? Most of my vehicles had 200-400,000 miles when I sold them. Good oil, filters, changes!
Fact is break ins are sometimes a necessary evil. Now we're going to make it rocket science with math and counting....wowser. Not arguing this point anymore....

 

[Cattywompuss]

Wow....you really are wrong. Engine rebuilding is a thing of the past, only for the uneducated, and unskilled. But when that engine was new it still had a break in period. I also had a Ford 5250 with a 5.4, sold it at 344,000 and the guy is still running it....what's the point? Most of my vehicles had 200-400,000 miles when I sold them. Good oil, filters, changes!
Fact is break ins are sometimes a necessary evil. Now we're going to make it rocket science with math and counting....wowser. Not arguing this point anymore....

Come on now, don't let exasperation get in the way of a good argument

 

[Flintandsteel]

Not sure what any of this has to do with gun barrels.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Not sure what any of this has to do with gun barrels.

Just the fact that barrels probably don't need break in

 

[Grenadier1758]

Some barrels are rifled using the button rifling process. A hardened button is pulled through the bore. The result is a smooth lands with smooth shallow grooves. Button rifling is a cheap manufacturing process and gives good results as observed by @Cattywompuss. Other rifling processes use a different process to cut the grooves. The lands may still have the machine marks on the lands and the cutting action to make the grooves may leave a bur on the lands along with the machining marks as the bore was reamed to dimension. But to keep costs under some control the labor to do the smoothing is not done by some. There are some makers of premium barrels that do some finishing/smoothing of the bores. Rice, Colerain, Rayl, Burton, Goodoien and a few others come to mind. The barrels from Jim Kibler seem to have some bore polishing. The GPR from Lyman did not get the benefit of the bore finishing. Doing some breaking in of the sharp edges may be required. The need for a break in period may just be the difference between an affordable rifle and one that may well be unaffordable.

 

[ML48]

Li

Come on now, don't let exasperation get in the way of a good argument

Life is to short.....

 

[LME]

My son has a friend that builds custom modern rifles to order. He does the entire package including load development. He told us that he put at least 100 rounds downrange before even starting to develop a pet load for it. His experience is that for most rifles it takes about 100 before " it settles in and behaves" . He is a precision shooter that likes long range shooting.

Could it be your son miss quoted the fellow ? I bought many rifles and worked on a few and haven't had to shoot many rounds to get accuracy and that was only to find what type of round it prefered.I bought an Anschutz and it came with a target shot at the factory. Any one would be proud to shoot the group on the target.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Strikes me some are not capable of comprehending what forces are acting out in a rifle bore. Especially a patch ball rifle!

First off, what you may consider a perfectly smooth rifled bore I assure you it is not if you are a piece of cloth being not only accelerated against it in a millisecond but also pressed against it in a millisecond with extremely high temperature and pressure doing its utmost to get past you as well!
That often is evident via torn and shredded patches we often see.
Question? If a barrel does not need running in, why does lapping or using wire wool suddenly stop patches getting ripped up?

Another often over looked aspect is the fact that while a bullet or ball is being shot up a barrel that barrel rings, rings like a bell, it vibrates at high frequencies. The rougher the bore that you can not detect the more disturbed the frequency from shot to shot is and accuracy potential is limited.

As long as gas is checked by a sabot or full contact bullet there is more tolerance to a new barrel. Patched ball rifles from new also benefit from adding a firewall wad of corn flour or a felt wad. That's the heat and pressure off a piece of cloth patch.

An engine has no parable with the running in of a rifle barrel. For starters there is either a high pressure oil system or a total loss constant supply of oil in an engine and one is not firing the engine across a distance on a trajectory!

 

[fishmusic]

Oh Lord I love this forum! That was fun!

 

[ML48]

Strikes me some are not capable of comprehending what forces are acting out in a rifle bore. Especially a patch ball rifle!

First off, what you may consider a perfectly smooth rifled bore I assure you it is not if you are a piece of cloth being not only accelerated against it in a millisecond but also pressed against it in a millisecond with extremely high temperature and pressure doing its utmost to get past you as well!
That often is evident via torn and shredded patches we often see.
Question? If a barrel does not need running in, why does lapping or using wire wool suddenly stop patches getting ripped up?

Another often over looked aspect is the fact that while a bullet or ball is being shot up a barrel that barrel rings, rings like a bell, it vibrates at high frequencies. The rougher the bore that you can not detect the more disturbed the frequency from shot to shot is and accuracy potential is limited.

As long as gas is checked by a sabot or full contact bullet there is more tolerance to a new barrel. Patched ball rifles from new also benefit from adding a firewall wad of corn flour or a felt wad. That's the heat and pressure off a piece of cloth patch.

An engine has no parable with the running in of a rifle barrel. For starters there is either a high pressure oil system or a total loss constant supply of oil in an engine and one is not firing the engine across a distance on a trajectory!

You're wrong about running an engine on trajectory. Ever watch autos or motorcycles jump a crap load of vehicles?! If that trajectory is wrong, someone is in for a bad day.
BTW: the same principle does apply to an engine....that cylinder bore isn't as smooth as you think, until the rings are seated properly, etc....

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

“Break in period” is an old wives tale.
All it really takes to get the best out of your rifle is to dance around the bonfire on a full moonlit night, chanting the correct invocation for your caliber. Simple.
Oh and don’t fergit the eye of newt and toe of dog…and don’t give up!

You forgot to mention that you also have to be starkers when you dance....

 

[BadDaditood]

This thread really took a turn from dancing starters in the moonlight to high mileage break-ins….
Reminds me of the Ranchers’ Convention where the Texan bragged up his spread saying “I can hop in my pickup truck at dawn, drive West until sunset and still not get to the end of my ranch”
Hearing this the little fella from Wisconsin put a sympathetic hand on the big Texans’ shoulder and said “I used to have a truck like that too”

 

[hanshi]

Let's don't stop! Does whiskey need breaking in before being bottled? What about, uh, I don't know, other stuff?

 

[Britsmoothy]

Let's don't stop! Does whiskey need breaking in before being bottled? What about, uh, I don't know, other stuff?

I noticed the synthetic gear oil is lousy on my shed doors hinges. First drop of rain and its gone!
Now Bees Wax....well, that's a different story

 

[TGJaeger]

Bee’s Wax? You’re waxing bees.??

You Brits need to go back to conquering and colonizing small backward nations. You obviously have waaay too much time on your hands!

 

[hanshi]

Bee’s Wax? You’re waxing bees.??

You Brits need to go back to conquering and colonizing small backward nations. You obviously have waaay too much time on your hands!

Wait a minute! I have been seeing a few waxy looking bees recently. Hmmmmm...