I dont think that I'm actually going to get an Elk, but I should still be prepared. My question is " How do you keep your meat cool once you pack your elk out to the trailhead, and keep it cool for the trip home?" In my case Wisconsin. I was thinking of Keeping some large coolers stashed in my truck with a supply of Dry Ice, or regular block ice. Has anyone ever used dry ice? If so where did you buy it? How much did you use and how much did it cost? Also Are there any special saftey concerns when using dry ice?
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Keeping Meat Cool
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Save your empty milk/juice cartons, fill them up with water and toss em in the freezer before you go. Fill your coolers up with them.
Guest
First, think positively. You are going to kill an elk and you will be prepared for that.
Second, where are you hunting and when? Check the weather and see what the temperature range is supposed to be. 40-50 is perfect for hanging quarters and if you have some of those muslin bags to go over them, they can hang for several days as long as they don't freeze. If its warmer than that or colder than that, bone it out pack it in coolers and throw ziplock bags of ice on top. You don't want it soaking in melted ice water. Be prepared for non-ideal weather. As a rule, I am not one to age meat as most of the time I cannot control the conditions sufficiently. I prefer butchering and freezing as fast as I can. However, the last mulie I shot got hauled to town, boned out, bagged up in garbage bags, and thrown in a frigerator for several days until my buddy finished his hunt. It still tastes excellent.
I've done the dry ice thing before and would rather not again. My experience with an elk was the the meat on the bottom of the cooler did not freeze while the stuff on top did and then started to thaw. I would rather keep it cool for a few days and then butcher and freeze. As a rule, my meat gets frozen only once. Doing otherwise will result in gamey flavor.
My $0.02. Your mileage may vary.
Sean
Second, where are you hunting and when? Check the weather and see what the temperature range is supposed to be. 40-50 is perfect for hanging quarters and if you have some of those muslin bags to go over them, they can hang for several days as long as they don't freeze. If its warmer than that or colder than that, bone it out pack it in coolers and throw ziplock bags of ice on top. You don't want it soaking in melted ice water. Be prepared for non-ideal weather. As a rule, I am not one to age meat as most of the time I cannot control the conditions sufficiently. I prefer butchering and freezing as fast as I can. However, the last mulie I shot got hauled to town, boned out, bagged up in garbage bags, and thrown in a frigerator for several days until my buddy finished his hunt. It still tastes excellent.
I've done the dry ice thing before and would rather not again. My experience with an elk was the the meat on the bottom of the cooler did not freeze while the stuff on top did and then started to thaw. I would rather keep it cool for a few days and then butcher and freeze. As a rule, my meat gets frozen only once. Doing otherwise will result in gamey flavor.
My $0.02. Your mileage may vary.
Sean
Guest
BTW, I like using frozen 2 liter water or soda bottles. It keeps the meltwater contained, and its a big chunk of ice that takes some time to melt.
Sean
Sean
Don't overlook your sleeping bag for keeping things cool on the way home. I've put bear and antelope carcasses in the back of the truck on a tarp. Stuffed the body cavity full of bags of ice from the nearest gas station and then covered the pile with my sleeping bag. Keeps things suprisingly cool for a long time even on those early season hunts.
Even if you can get all the meat in a cooler with ice, putting a sleeping bag over the cooler will increase the insulation tremendously. I've kept birds frozen for days that way.
Even if you can get all the meat in a cooler with ice, putting a sleeping bag over the cooler will increase the insulation tremendously. I've kept birds frozen for days that way.
Sean said:BTW, I like using frozen 2 liter water or soda bottles. It keeps the meltwater contained, and its a big chunk of ice that takes some time to melt.
Sean
i would second this method of heat prevention and water reserves, low cost and proven over many years!!
Our party has killed quite a few elk in Colorado and to ensure "sweet meat" we skin the elk out immediately after killing. It's then quartered, the backstraps and tenderloins are cut out, the neck is sawed off and all sausage meat is trimmed off the carcass. All this meat is then placed separately in 2 cheese cloth game bags each and packed out which usually takes 3-6 hrs. At camp, all the meat is hung in the shade w/ a good breeze and that's it. One year it rained continually for the first 5 days, so we got some dry ice and kept the meat in the trailer cooler. To expedite the skinning and butchering immediately after the kill and to eliminate the trip back to camp, we stash everything including a good butchers saw "on top" in the area we hunt a couple of days before the opener. Once the heat has dissapated and a casing has formed, the meat will just dry out a little. The double game bags ensure that the blow flies don't lay eggs on the meat which become maggots. The cooler evenings help to keep the meat cool even during the day. Have hunted elk in 70 degree day time temps but the evenings cooled down to just above freezing. Of course, our camp is at 10,000+ elev.....Fred
paulvallandigham
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Glad you got around to mentioning the altitude.
Here's the deal about meat spoiling, Water molecules are the most dense at 37.5 degrees F. You set your refrigerator to cool things at about 38 degrees, because the dial is numbered in 2 digit increments. This is the best temperature to keep meat from spoiling, as bacteria are the least active at that temperature. Below 37.5 degrees, the bacterial activity increases as the water molecule also increase in size. Above that temperature bacteria become more active. The optimum temperature for rapid bacterial growth of the kind of bacteria that spoils meat is between 50 and 85 degrees F. Above that and the meat begins to cook and kill off bacteria. Below that the bacteria cannot be very active-but, they will still spoil the meat if given enough time.
NOW, altitude plays a big role in what you can do and what you can get away with. The higher the altitude, the thinner, and DRIER the air. Bacteria, like all living organisms, generally need heat, food and water to survive and reproduce. Its the process of reproducing that leaves toxins behind in the meat that "spoils " the taste. When you get above 6,000 feet, you are above the most humid zones, and as you go above that elevation, the air becomes thinner, dryer, and Colder longer. Bacteria die over night when the temperatures drop below freezing, or at least into the low 30s. They cannot multiply and reproduce at high altitude because they don't have enough warmth, long enough, to get the job done. They will multiply and spoil meat if you get that rare day when its in the high 60s, and 70, or hotter, however.
You can get away without ice at high altitude if you:
Keep the meat in Shade- where its cooler, but the cool, dry air still circulates.
Keep the meat dry, and clean. Dirt is the vehicle that brings soil born bacteria to the meat. Keep the debris, and dust off the meat. Cover it with something. Many hunters still leave the hides on. I don't recommend it, because you can get spoilage under the hide. Its a terrific insulator, and it holds heat in long after the animal is killed and even field dressed. Use rags, towels, paper toweling, whatever to remove the blood and any other fluids on and on the meat.
I recommend using Cheesecloth to wrap the meat, after removing the hide. Cheese cloth is cheap, available in the automotive section of the big discount stores for waxing and polishing car finished, at a price that is a third of what the same stores charge over in the " linens and fabrics" department. Check it out. The Cheesecloth I have bought is made in a cylinder, like a large ladies stocking. Only these can be expanded wide enough to cover the entire chest and rib section of a deer or Elk carcass. The Cheesecloth will keep the meat both clean and dry.
Keeping it cool depends on where you are and what you have at hand. The idea of coolers, with containers of ice in them is great. You can usually get permission from Motel operators to put your Ice containers in their ice maker chest over night, so they are freshly frozen the next day, when you are driving a couple of days to your hunting area. I buy Bags of Ice at every tavern, Gas station, truck stop, Stop and Rob, etc. that I see. Break up some of it and put it in zip lock bags, and put that inside the carcass, and in garbage bags ( ice chests if you have them) with the meat, to keep the meat cold, but not frozen.
Those large plastic, multiple ply garbage bags make a great substitute for ice chests when you don't have them. Put more bags of ice over and on the sides of a bag containing the carcass, and then cover it with a wool blanket, or sleeping bag, to keep the cold down against the meat in that bag. The bags will keep the meat cool, protect if from road dust, and odors, like diesel fumes, and from the heat generated by your vehicles engine.
If you have to travel more than a day to get home, simply refresh your ice with more ice every day. I check the status of my ice and meat every twelve hours, and buy more ice if needed.
A lot of people decide not to transport bone, gristle, fat, and sinew they can't eat, and can't use. So, they bone out the meat in their hunting camps, and simply bag up the muscles that are saved. It certainly cuts down the amount of an animal you are hauling home, and makes it quite possible to fit most if not all of it in the available ice chests for transporting home. I fold up the hide of my deer, and bag it, then put a bag of ice inside the plastic bag, to keep the hide from spoiling, and the gnats, and bacteria at bay. If you are not going to use the skull or head, dispose of them away from your camp. Coyote, ravens, eagles, and all kinds of lower mammals, and bugs, will quickly consume the scraps, and mice will eat the bones for the calcium. Any scraps or meat that can't fit in the coolers can be kept in plastic bags, with ice bags inside, until you can stop and buy another cooler(s) to put the extra meat in.
Experienced hunters haunt garage sales, and estate auctions to buy large ice chests- the metal sided Coleman coolers last forever, it seems-- so they have enough to transport a lot of meat. And everyone has sharp knives, hones, and for some, even a saw to help in the butchering.
I don't personally use a saw, because I don't want saw chips of bone being cut and the driven into the muscles surrounding the bones. Its another way to introduce bacteria where it doesn't belong, and it will spoil the meat. I use the scraps from kills to make sausage. The recipe is on this forum down below on the index page.
There are places to hunt in Colorado where its NOT cool enough, and its not HIGH enough to have cool, dry, air long enough each day to prevent spoilage.
I am not in favor of the " Casing " mentioned, that some like to put on their meat. Its hard to cook, and harder to eat. I don't want to waste that much meat, thank you. In warm areas, locate a source for Ice cubes, in bags, and plan on trips when needed to get more ice.
I know one party who hunted during some fairly warm weather out there, but they found an overhang where a snowdrift still existed in August, protected from the heat of the sun. They put their Elk and Mule deer meat in the snow bank during the day, to keep if from spoiling. If you take a modern camper out there, these often have refrigeration units in them that can make a small quantity of ice each day. Talk to the dealer about improving the ice making capacity, with any add-on devices. Its not the first time the industry has faced this issue. They have units that are installed on refrigeration semis all the time. You won't need anything that large, but something smaller to make ice, or allow you to keep your coolers and ice containers frozen.
Here's the deal about meat spoiling, Water molecules are the most dense at 37.5 degrees F. You set your refrigerator to cool things at about 38 degrees, because the dial is numbered in 2 digit increments. This is the best temperature to keep meat from spoiling, as bacteria are the least active at that temperature. Below 37.5 degrees, the bacterial activity increases as the water molecule also increase in size. Above that temperature bacteria become more active. The optimum temperature for rapid bacterial growth of the kind of bacteria that spoils meat is between 50 and 85 degrees F. Above that and the meat begins to cook and kill off bacteria. Below that the bacteria cannot be very active-but, they will still spoil the meat if given enough time.
NOW, altitude plays a big role in what you can do and what you can get away with. The higher the altitude, the thinner, and DRIER the air. Bacteria, like all living organisms, generally need heat, food and water to survive and reproduce. Its the process of reproducing that leaves toxins behind in the meat that "spoils " the taste. When you get above 6,000 feet, you are above the most humid zones, and as you go above that elevation, the air becomes thinner, dryer, and Colder longer. Bacteria die over night when the temperatures drop below freezing, or at least into the low 30s. They cannot multiply and reproduce at high altitude because they don't have enough warmth, long enough, to get the job done. They will multiply and spoil meat if you get that rare day when its in the high 60s, and 70, or hotter, however.
You can get away without ice at high altitude if you:
Keep the meat in Shade- where its cooler, but the cool, dry air still circulates.
Keep the meat dry, and clean. Dirt is the vehicle that brings soil born bacteria to the meat. Keep the debris, and dust off the meat. Cover it with something. Many hunters still leave the hides on. I don't recommend it, because you can get spoilage under the hide. Its a terrific insulator, and it holds heat in long after the animal is killed and even field dressed. Use rags, towels, paper toweling, whatever to remove the blood and any other fluids on and on the meat.
I recommend using Cheesecloth to wrap the meat, after removing the hide. Cheese cloth is cheap, available in the automotive section of the big discount stores for waxing and polishing car finished, at a price that is a third of what the same stores charge over in the " linens and fabrics" department. Check it out. The Cheesecloth I have bought is made in a cylinder, like a large ladies stocking. Only these can be expanded wide enough to cover the entire chest and rib section of a deer or Elk carcass. The Cheesecloth will keep the meat both clean and dry.
Keeping it cool depends on where you are and what you have at hand. The idea of coolers, with containers of ice in them is great. You can usually get permission from Motel operators to put your Ice containers in their ice maker chest over night, so they are freshly frozen the next day, when you are driving a couple of days to your hunting area. I buy Bags of Ice at every tavern, Gas station, truck stop, Stop and Rob, etc. that I see. Break up some of it and put it in zip lock bags, and put that inside the carcass, and in garbage bags ( ice chests if you have them) with the meat, to keep the meat cold, but not frozen.
Those large plastic, multiple ply garbage bags make a great substitute for ice chests when you don't have them. Put more bags of ice over and on the sides of a bag containing the carcass, and then cover it with a wool blanket, or sleeping bag, to keep the cold down against the meat in that bag. The bags will keep the meat cool, protect if from road dust, and odors, like diesel fumes, and from the heat generated by your vehicles engine.
If you have to travel more than a day to get home, simply refresh your ice with more ice every day. I check the status of my ice and meat every twelve hours, and buy more ice if needed.
A lot of people decide not to transport bone, gristle, fat, and sinew they can't eat, and can't use. So, they bone out the meat in their hunting camps, and simply bag up the muscles that are saved. It certainly cuts down the amount of an animal you are hauling home, and makes it quite possible to fit most if not all of it in the available ice chests for transporting home. I fold up the hide of my deer, and bag it, then put a bag of ice inside the plastic bag, to keep the hide from spoiling, and the gnats, and bacteria at bay. If you are not going to use the skull or head, dispose of them away from your camp. Coyote, ravens, eagles, and all kinds of lower mammals, and bugs, will quickly consume the scraps, and mice will eat the bones for the calcium. Any scraps or meat that can't fit in the coolers can be kept in plastic bags, with ice bags inside, until you can stop and buy another cooler(s) to put the extra meat in.
Experienced hunters haunt garage sales, and estate auctions to buy large ice chests- the metal sided Coleman coolers last forever, it seems-- so they have enough to transport a lot of meat. And everyone has sharp knives, hones, and for some, even a saw to help in the butchering.
I don't personally use a saw, because I don't want saw chips of bone being cut and the driven into the muscles surrounding the bones. Its another way to introduce bacteria where it doesn't belong, and it will spoil the meat. I use the scraps from kills to make sausage. The recipe is on this forum down below on the index page.
There are places to hunt in Colorado where its NOT cool enough, and its not HIGH enough to have cool, dry, air long enough each day to prevent spoilage.
I am not in favor of the " Casing " mentioned, that some like to put on their meat. Its hard to cook, and harder to eat. I don't want to waste that much meat, thank you. In warm areas, locate a source for Ice cubes, in bags, and plan on trips when needed to get more ice.
I know one party who hunted during some fairly warm weather out there, but they found an overhang where a snowdrift still existed in August, protected from the heat of the sun. They put their Elk and Mule deer meat in the snow bank during the day, to keep if from spoiling. If you take a modern camper out there, these often have refrigeration units in them that can make a small quantity of ice each day. Talk to the dealer about improving the ice making capacity, with any add-on devices. Its not the first time the industry has faced this issue. They have units that are installed on refrigeration semis all the time. You won't need anything that large, but something smaller to make ice, or allow you to keep your coolers and ice containers frozen.
Paul....just as a point of info...have you done any elk hunting? I ask this because some of things you stated aren't exactly what most elk hunters do. In the remote areas there isn't any ice to be had, so letting a case form is just a natural ocurrence. This casing protects the meat and prevents further drying. I've hunted 9 miles from the nearest road and my meat has always been A-ONE. Using a butchers saw to separate the hind quarters and then to split them, to cut off the neck and also the lower 4 legs really speeds things up for the pack out. Some of what you said may apply to deer but elk are much larger and need different treatment. The number one thing in having excellent meat, is immediately skinning the elk. Have hunted elk since 1986 and have never had bad meat and the meat is transported in my cargo trailer's very large ice chest w/o ice....Fred
Once the heat has dissapated, meat in plastic bags and then submerged in cold mountain streams is another excellent way to have good meat. Putting the meat into plastic bags while it's still warm, will cause rapid spoilage....Fred
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Paul....just as a point of info...have you done any elk hunting?
I dunno, but I bet he stayed in a Holiday Inn! :haha: Sorry, just couldn't resist that one.
Swampy said:Paul....just as a point of info...have you done any elk hunting?
I dunno, but I bet he stayed in a Holiday Inn! :haha: Sorry, just couldn't resist that one.
:rotf:
What??
You mean he makes posts about things that he DOESN'T have actual hands on experience with??
:shocked2: :shocked2:
oletymepreacher
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Skinning and hanging the meat where the air can get to it must be done as soon as possible. Getting an elk home: Once friends from Iowa stopped at my house where we completely butchered it, placed the processed meat in one of those large coolers, they added ice bags from a gas station. I once saw a pickup parked at a trailhead with a freezer and generator in the bed-now that is confidence, pickup had Nebraska plates. Hunting companions from Pennsylvania deboned their meat wrapping it, then lined the bottom of their cooler with ice, piled the meat in, then added ice on top. My drive is only a few hours from hunting camp, and the meat usually hangs in the shade for a few days before leaving camp, so the quarters are in the back of the pickup,covered with tarps top and bottom, and all the camp sleeping bags are spread out both below and above the meat.Meat should be protected in garbage bags to prevent getting wet from the melting ice, if ice is used. Meat is hung in camp in those bags that resemble mesh so that the air can get to the meat and the bags keep flies from fouling the meat. Hung in this way, there is a crusty film that must be cut away before butchering, and this stuff makes excellent dog food. If dry ice is your preference, all the grocery stores in Laramie carry it.
Little Wattsy
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IF you want it on ice you can buy it cheap ANYWHERE. I usually skin it, put in cloth game bags, let it hang a night or two outside, and then just throw it in the back of the SUV..Keep the windows down for good air circulation and AWAYYYYY I go. Never had a problem and I acknowledeg that cooling the meat down FAST is VERY important to quality table fare!!!
I think it has been stated before, but what the heck:
The most important thing is to get the carcass cooled. If it is cold out, you can sometimes get away with hanging it skin on with sternum split right to the throat. Some guys wedge a short stout stick in there to keep the chest open to the breeze. But I have always been one to get the hide off as soon as possible, bet it deer, elk, or whatever. The main thing is to get the heat out of the meat. I have a friend who lost a moose because they did not skin it. They figured it was cold enough that they could get away with it. It wasn't.
I have never been a big fan of quartering in the field unless I have to. If you lack the ability to hang it high enough though, quartering is the way to go. Or you can halve it the wrong way. Makes it easier to hang anyway. But if you decide to split or quarter the carcass, a cordless reciprocating saw is a great tool to do this with. (Not period correct, I know.) One advantage of halving it the wrong way is that you can do it with just your hunting knife.
If it is sunny and warm, look for a shady place to hang it. It makes a big difference. It also helps a lot if it can hang in a good breeze.
And if you are staying overnight with an animal hanging in the trees, mind that you stay bear wary. Don't hang it anywhere near the gutpile.
The most important thing is to get the carcass cooled. If it is cold out, you can sometimes get away with hanging it skin on with sternum split right to the throat. Some guys wedge a short stout stick in there to keep the chest open to the breeze. But I have always been one to get the hide off as soon as possible, bet it deer, elk, or whatever. The main thing is to get the heat out of the meat. I have a friend who lost a moose because they did not skin it. They figured it was cold enough that they could get away with it. It wasn't.
I have never been a big fan of quartering in the field unless I have to. If you lack the ability to hang it high enough though, quartering is the way to go. Or you can halve it the wrong way. Makes it easier to hang anyway. But if you decide to split or quarter the carcass, a cordless reciprocating saw is a great tool to do this with. (Not period correct, I know.) One advantage of halving it the wrong way is that you can do it with just your hunting knife.
If it is sunny and warm, look for a shady place to hang it. It makes a big difference. It also helps a lot if it can hang in a good breeze.
And if you are staying overnight with an animal hanging in the trees, mind that you stay bear wary. Don't hang it anywhere near the gutpile.
Book learning or folks travling through are all fine and good, but actually living here 24/7/365 tells a different story -When you get above 6,000 feet, you are above the most humid zones, and as you go above that elevation, the air becomes thinner, dryer, and Colder longer. Bacteria die over night when the temperatures drop below freezing, or at least into the low 30s.
I live 20 miles south of Durango, Co at 6700'ASL - it's pinyon juniper high desert - mixed pine forest doesn't start at this latitude until around 8000' and aspen at about 9000':
Humidity - can and does vary a bunch even in one day all depends - for instance today it was 73% at dawn (5:45AM or so) and 10% by noon - a 63% difference....
Temps 29°F at 5:00AM and 81°F at 2:30 PM - a 52°F change.
Neither are unusual differences for spring or fall when hunting season is in full swing...
And as others have noted Colorado is a big state and what works up north may not work down south - and FWIW the good elk country in this state is all high pretty much up mountain or high desert.....the lowest spots in the state outside the eastern plains are still 4500' and above...
As for the bacteria - my sewer pond says different - the hot spring, days send the count soaring and they may slow down at night, but sure don't die off completely even with nights in mid to upper 20's as the little buggers are right back at it the next day.........
Skin your elk and get it cool and keep it below 45°F while it's hanging in the shade and you should be fine - like flehto said get that case on it and things are no real trouble - heck I've got one bud that likes his meat "high" as did a lot of the western Indians - and that's bacteria at work. Once it's in the car and headed back to the flatlands - coolers and cold paks as others have advised, and plenty of them - elk are BIG critters compared to most deer....
FWI - 20 elk in 30 years of hunting the buggers from Colorado to Montana and been on many more kills. BTW - you can have all them nasty ole bulls you want - give me prime cow!
LaBonte said:When you get above 6,000 feet, you are above the most humid zones, and as you go above that elevation, the air becomes thinner, dryer, and Colder longer. Bacteria die over night when the temperatures drop below freezing, or at least into the low 30s.
Book learning or folks travling through are all fine and good, but actually living here 24/7/365 tells a different story -
Exactly...that's why armchair theories are worthless, no matter what the subject...your post underscores the point that first hand experience creates actual knowledge.
Up where I am (Alberta Canada) it is generally not a huge problem during rifle season (November), because it is colder, especially at night. Sometimes the biggest worry we have is to keep whatever critter is hanging from freezing. But then, that is more of an inconvenience to cutting, than a real problem.
But last year, it was so dang warm during opening week that they were all timbered up somewhere up by the treeline (or so we figure). On the first couple of days we worried about what we would do to cool the meat. Soon that gave way to worrying that we would not even get an opportunity for a shot. The latter worry turned out to be the applicable one. Still a great hunt though.
As for the whole business of keeping the flys off: Have any of you ever tried the Indian trick of building a real smokey fire nearby, and rigging it so that the smoke is wafting over the carcass as the case dries? I never have, but I have often wondered how well it would work. Usually they did it as they were drying meat in strips. But I wonder if it could be done to protect a carcass, and how much it would affect the flavour?
But last year, it was so dang warm during opening week that they were all timbered up somewhere up by the treeline (or so we figure). On the first couple of days we worried about what we would do to cool the meat. Soon that gave way to worrying that we would not even get an opportunity for a shot. The latter worry turned out to be the applicable one. Still a great hunt though.
As for the whole business of keeping the flys off: Have any of you ever tried the Indian trick of building a real smokey fire nearby, and rigging it so that the smoke is wafting over the carcass as the case dries? I never have, but I have often wondered how well it would work. Usually they did it as they were drying meat in strips. But I wonder if it could be done to protect a carcass, and how much it would affect the flavour?
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