Kentucky Pistol accuracy

[Don]

I took my .45cal CVA Kentucky to the range today to practice off hand duelist shooting. Usually I shoot two handed or from a rest so off handed shooting is not my strong suit. I'd like that to change so I decided to do all my shooting off hand at roughly 13 to 15 yards. I was all over the paper plate target I was using so I shot a few rounds from a rest to be sure it wasn't the gun or the home cast balls I was using. Sure enough my group was 1 inch to 1.5 inches in size. I went back to off hand shooting and was able to settle down a bit. After all was said and done my first paper plate held a group of about 7 to 7.5 inches at about 15 yrds. After a little practice the next target held a 6 inch group. Couple of questions, whats a good group at 15 yards and is there a web sight some where that has some pointers on shooting BP pistols off hand? I used to have a Muzzleblast artical on such but don't know if I still have it. I know my pistol will shoot a 35 grain charge a little tighter than the 30 I was shooting today but I didn't want to stress the stock too much. That pistol seems to like hotter loads.

Don

 

[mhb]

You did not say whether your pistol is flintlock or percussion, but you did indicate that it is capable of very good accuracy when shot from a rest.
My experience is that a good percussion pistol (rifled) is capable of accuracy as good as that from a modern arm, other factors being equal (well-fitted stock, good trigger and sights, etc.).
Flintlocks are just as accurate in a purely mechanical sense, but take a good deal more practice to overcome the reaction to the impact of the heavy cock, the flash of the priming charge, and the inevitable delay between trigger release and actual departure of the shot from the muzzle.
At least one study (which was posted here, I believe) demonstrates that the time between trigger release and shot departure is at least six times as long in the flintlock as in a percussion gun - very nearly 1/10 second, which is a significant factor when firing offhand.
If your current skill level with modern pistols is high, you can expect to approach the same performance with a percussion pistol in reasonably short order. To get really good accuracy from a flintlock is going to take quite a bit of work on concentration and follow-through, but is achieveable.
For now, if you are keeping all your shots on a paper plate at ca. 15 yards (practical duelling range!), especially if you are shooting a flinter, you are on the right track!
mhb - Mike

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Try putting up a 3"X 5" card in the middle of your paper plate. Use a card of a different than the plate. It might help you concentrate a little better. :hmm:

 

[cowpoke1955]

I have a .45 CVA Kentucky percussion. From a rest at 25 yards, I get the same size groups that you do at 15 yards. My load is a .440 ball, pillow ticking patch lubed with Ballistol oil and 20 grains of FFFg Goex. I know it's not a powerful load, but it's very accurate. I won a few matches with it. For off hand, try a two handed hold. Good luck :thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

Like Double2 said use a smaller aiming point,
"Aim small, Miss small"
And like cowpoke mine likes a light load for accuracy,
25grns 2F

 

[ChrisHarris]

Is there any tips on stance? Knees locked? Knees slightly bent in the typical sports 'ready' stance? Weight evenly centered on both feet or slightly more on the front or back foot?

If you have set triggers, do you pull the set trigger when you are coming down to line up on the target? Or do you wait until you are actually on the target before pulling the set trigger?

 

[necchi]

Is there any tips on stance?

Natural Point of Aim, you find that and move your feet (one foot actually) to adjust your body position.
Here's one explanation; http://zombieshootersassociation.com/natural-point-of-aim-for-a-handgun-from-shooter-guru/
You don't need a loaded gun to practice NPA at home aiming at small targets, a wall switch, a door knob, a number on a clock.

If you have set triggers, do you pull the set trigger when you are coming down to line up on the target?

I never come down, I always raise up.
If you watch folks that start high then drop, you almost always see them go too low and have to raise up again.
Why waste the muscle energy? (you have 15 seconds before the muscle start to shake)
Once in position, and you have your mind in the zone, with the gun pointed safely yet at ease, set the trigger, raise to the target, aquire and squeeze.
Don't forget to breath,
Don't have coffee, chocolate or soda,,

Target acuracy is more a mind and physical game than the gun.
The gun is just a tool, it should be tuned too it's best accuracy from the bench,
then training the shooter to use the tool is next.

 

[Don]

Good tips gents, thanks. I'll have to play around with lighter loads more. I settled on 30 cause 25 grains did not do well group wise so I may go all the way down to 20. If that doesn't work then I'll edge up over 30. BTW I'm using Pyrodex P so I may try RS and experiment with a different brand of caps. Not planning on winning matches just yet I just want to improve my marksmanship. If I can get that 6 inch group down to 4 inches by the middle of the summer I'll be tickled.

Don

 

[FishDFly]

Scores from Phoenix 2012 Master Class-top 4 finishers- all offhand and one handed.

Flintlock 25 yards
83
93
90
94

Flintlock 50 yards

75
77
71
72

Percussion 25 yards
95
89
93
92

Percussion 50 yards

82
78
79
84

 

[FishDFly]

Is there any tips on stance? Knees locked? Knees slightly bent in the typical sports 'ready' stance? Weight evenly centered on both feet or slightly more on the front or back foot?

If you have set triggers, do you pull the set trigger when you are coming down to line up on the target? Or do you wait until you are actually on the target before pulling the set trigger?

After you are facing the target, you either put a cap on the nipple or place priming powder in the pan, pull the set trigger and then aim the pistol at the target.

 

[FishDFly]

PM sent.

 

[biliff]

This chart has been around for awhile and can be helpful diagnosing problems.
https://home.comcast.net/~GreatDaneBMX/forum-xdtalk/Targets/Pistol-Correction-RH-Letter.pdf

 

[FishDFly]

The chart does not lie, I am a low left shooter and it's a hard habit to break, it was diagnosed by one of the Master Class shooters who watched me shoot and looking at my targets. His comment was, you are jerking the trigger, your powder charges are low enough.

Powder charges, you do not see Master's shooting heavey charges.

Becoming a good pistol shooter requires a lot of work and commitment, I lack the desire to become a Master.

Matches are won by practicing at 50 yards, forget anything else.

 

[ChrisHarris]

Thank you Richard and necchi. :hatsoff:

 

[junkman_01]

Keep practicing one handed! These are HAND guns.... NOT HANDS guns!

 

[aeatwood]

Becoming a good pistol shot: 30,000-50,000 very careful shots, 10-25% dry fire. :rotf:

You pretty much need a good .22 of some sort.

2 things will get you a long, loong way:

1) The pistol is like a violin. Grip consistency really, REALLY matters.

2) Trigger mash is everything. You can shoot holding your breath or not, one eye open or both, standing on one leg, or on your head. You can do it "surprise break" or "mental impulse", but you have to tickle the trigger w/o moving the sights.

Note: the gun will wobble - that's not what I'm talking about. Just don't introduce any MORE wobble when the trigger breaks.

Shooting ML's or auto's pretty much requires a shooting partner for dummy drills. Revolvers you can load 1 or 2 random chambers, and spin the cylinder - altho w/ percussion revolvers, you also need to cap all the cylinders - your eye will pick up the presence/absence of a cap.

At 25 yards, a decent not spectacular barrel should produce 1 hole groups with a load it likes. A really good barrel will produce groups about 1/4"-3/4" measured on centers. This is from a double rest w/ good eyes.

 

[junkman_01]

Becoming a good pistol shot: 30,000-50,000 very careful shots, 10-25% dry fire. :rotf:

You pretty much need a good .22 of some sort.

2 things will get you a long, loong way:

1) The pistol is like a violin. Grip consistency really, REALLY matters.

2) Trigger mash is everything. You can shoot holding your breath or not, one eye open or both, standing on one leg, or on your head. You can do it "surprise break" or "mental impulse", but you have to tickle the trigger w/o moving the sights.

Note: the gun will wobble - that's not what I'm talking about. Just don't introduce any MORE wobble when the trigger breaks.

Shooting ML's or auto's pretty much requires a shooting partner for dummy drills. Revolvers you can load 1 or 2 random chambers, and spin the cylinder - altho w/ percussion revolvers, you also need to cap all the cylinders - your eye will pick up the presence/absence of a cap.

At 25 yards, a decent not spectacular barrel should produce 1 hole groups with a load it likes. A really good barrel will produce groups about 1/4"-3/4" measured on centers. This is from a double rest w/ good eyes.

 

[FishDFly]

Becoming a good pistol shot: 30,000-50,000 very careful shots, 10-25% dry fire. :rotf:

You pretty much need a good .22 of some sort.

2 things will get you a long, loong way:

1) The pistol is like a violin. Grip consistency really, REALLY matters.

2) Trigger mash is everything. You can shoot holding your breath or not, one eye open or both, standing on one leg, or on your head. You can do it "surprise break" or "mental impulse", but you have to tickle the trigger w/o moving the sights.

Note: the gun will wobble - that's not what I'm talking about. Just don't introduce any MORE wobble when the trigger breaks.

Shooting ML's or auto's pretty much requires a shooting partner for dummy drills. Revolvers you can load 1 or 2 random chambers, and spin the cylinder - altho w/ percussion revolvers, you also need to cap all the cylinders - your eye will pick up the presence/absence of a cap.

At 25 yards, a decent not spectacular barrel should produce 1 hole groups with a load it likes. A really good barrel will produce groups about 1/4"-3/4" measured on centers. This is from a double rest w/ good eyes.

I dry fire 2 or 3 times a week first thing in the morning, it does help.

Shooting M/Ls became a chore due to the cleaning so I went to shooting .22. I shoot a lot more now and holes in paper are holes.

I understand the mechanics of pistol shooting and I have a good library of material on pistol shooting which I read on a regular basis.

One problem is there are no matches where I live and you have to shoot in matches.

My average is slowly going up, just not a quick I would like.

 

[crockett]

You are dealing with a much slower lock time than a modern arm and when the trigger breaks the hammer falls, strikes cap or frizzen and then the cap or pan ignites the charge. That's a lot of time and you have to really practice your follow through. The biggest problem ito press the trigger okay but then change grip, etc at that point. Practice, practice, practice.
The dry firing may help if you maintain your sight picture after the hammer falls.

 

[FishDFly]

"You are dealing with a much slower lock time than a modern arm and when the trigger breaks the hammer falls, strikes cap or frizzen and then the cap or pan ignites the charge. That's a lot of time and you have to really practice your follow through."

If your pistols suffer from the above, you are not shooting quality match grade pistols at the National Level.

I doubt Master Class shooter's would agree with your assement.

Oh, the dry firing recommendation came from the U.S Olymic Team, guess they do not have a clue how to win GOLD, duh.