Kerr Bullets in an 1858?

[YJake]

Does anybody cast and shoot the Eras Gone Kerr bullet in their 1858 or other percussion revolvers?

I’ve experimented with the Johnston and Dow design and it doesn’t shoot as well as roundball for me. The J&D design is also fairly long and the rammer on my Pietta flattens the noses when loading.

The Kerr design seems shorter and has lube grooves, the front is also flatter. I’m just curious how they shoot for those of you that have tried them?

-Jake

 

[rodwha]

I wasn’t aware that the percussion bullets used lube. I’m not familiar with the various names as pointy bullets in a handgun are just a no-no for hunting (and shooting men apparently). I would have preferred a ball to a conical then too.

 

[YJake]

I wasn’t aware that the percussion bullets used lube. I’m not familiar with the various names as pointy bullets in a handgun are just a no-no for hunting (and shooting men apparently). I would have preferred a ball to a conical then too.

I’ve never used lube in a percussion revolver bullet, but I do use lubed wads under round balls during extended shooting sessions. When doing so, I’ve never had the powder fouling get severe enough to tie the revolver up. The fouling stays soft and can be wiped off with a rag.

I may or may not actually lube the grooves of the bullets. I never used lube or wads with my Johnston and Dow loads but they fouled the gun up quickly.

-Jake

 

[Tom A Hawk]

I wasn’t aware that the percussion bullets used lube. I’m not familiar with the various names as pointy bullets in a handgun are just a no-no for hunting (and shooting men apparently). I would have preferred a ball to a conical then too.

Sorry, but I do not understand these comments at all. Of course, conical bullets are lubed. Contrary to today's flat nosed and hollow pointed projectiles intended for maximum expansion ( and minimal risk of off side collateral damage) pistol bullets in the low velocity cap and ball days were designed for maximum penetration and were therefore " pointy".

 

[rodwha]

Sorry, but I do not understand these comments at all. Of course, conical bullets are lubed. Contrary to today's flat nosed and hollow pointed projectiles intended for maximum expansion ( and minimal risk of off side collateral damage) pistol bullets in the low velocity cap and ball days were designed for maximum penetration and were therefore " pointy".

The pics I recall seeing of conicals found showed no lube grooves. There was the tapered base and that was as about it. Looking now at pics I see one design with them and an old one that may have, but the corrosion makes it undefined sort of. Maybe that was my problem, I didn’t take the time to examine them. However it seems there’s also been the original Colt loading instructions that list nothing for lube, though it seems this was in regards to a ball I guess. And then we see the first metallic cartridges used an outside lubrication. Why would they even do something like that if lube grooves worked?

Apparently I must be wrong, and I’d like to at least fix that

I’m at a loss for the needing them to be pointy for penetration when we see a ball easily will pass through 20-something inches of gel. They don’t need to be pointy to penetrate at all. The point certainly didn’t do them any favors when it came to wounding their enemies.

 

[nkbj]

I want to try .44 bullets that have the hollow base slip into the chambers and the forward drive bands shear off.
I'm working on it.

 

[rodwha]

I want to try .44 bullets that have the hollow base slip into the chambers and the forward drive bands shear off.
I'm working on it.

That’s one thing that scares me with the reproductions. That’s a lot of friction to need to get past. I only placed long driving bands on my designs I intended only for my Ruger. And so when I make a bullet to be universal I reduce the driving bands to accommodate my repro. I’d feel differently if my powder charge wasn’t pretty stout and/or was using less energetic powder. Well, that and the walls on my NMA sure do look minuscule.

 

[Bad Karma]

The pics I recall seeing of conicals found showed no lube grooves. There was the tapered base and that was as about it. Looking now at pics I see one design with them and an old one that may have, but the corrosion makes it undefined sort of. Maybe that was my problem, I didn’t take the time to examine them. However it seems there’s also been the original Colt loading instructions that list nothing for lube, though it seems this was in regards to a ball I guess. And then we see the first metallic cartridges used an outside lubrication. Why would they even do something like that if lube grooves worked?

Apparently I must be wrong, and I’d like to at least fix that

I’m at a loss for the needing them to be pointy for penetration when we see a ball easily will pass through 20-something inches of gel. They don’t need to be pointy to penetrate at all. The point certainly didn’t do them any favors when it came to wounding their enemies.

I try to remember that back in the day, much like today, designs often become reality because the designers intuition weighs more heavily than his scientific knowledge. I’m sure a pointy bullet seemed like a great idea to a great many people since we saw lead bullet variations of them in military and civilian use well into the last century.

 

[rodwha]

Most here lack a lube groove. And I suppose that tiny little impression that must be the lube groove was dismissed by me as likely something else. So not all of the percussion conicals had lube grooves it seems.

 

[Mknight702]

I used home made lube on my J&D bullets (Gatofeo No1, but with added olive oil). Not sure what, if any, difference it makes.

 

[nkbj]

I haven't tried the Kerr bullets.
These just use lube in front, same as ball.

 

[rodwha]

I haven't tried the Kerr bullets.
These just use lube in front, same as ball.

I can see the benefit of the smaller caliber in the thicker .44 cylinder. Those long bearing surfaces would give me pause in my NMA. I must say I often think of a ‘51 reamed and lined to .40 cal like the few test pistols Colt made. But I still really like the NMA and can see that being a swell platform too.

 

[No second place]

Does anybody cast and shoot the Eras Gone Kerr bullet in their 1858 or other percussion revolvers?

I’ve experimented with the Johnston and Dow design and it doesn’t shoot as well as roundball for me. The J&D design is also fairly long and the rammer on my Pietta flattens the noses when loading.

The Kerr design seems shorter and has lube grooves, the front is also flatter. I’m just curious how they shoot for those of you that have tried them?

View attachment 51506

-Jake

Just curious...Why bother shooting Bullets instead of Ball. What does this accomplish?

 

[rodwha]

Just curious...Why bother shooting Bullets instead of Ball. What does this accomplish?

With traditional conicals I’d venture to guess because it’s mostly a curiosity. I’ve not read of many finding them accurate, though that’s quite likely to the plunger design. For myself I find the traditional conicals merely an interest as they’re dismal for hunting with those pointy noses that take up so much room with little mass.

I read of so many claiming to get considerably better accuracy with a ball vs a bullet/conical. I’ve not seen that myself, and I take it that it’s due to the 1:16” twist of both. What I’ve seen is that the with both pistols starting at 25 grns of 3F and working up by 5’s that when their charge was found accuracy stayed the same despite if I used a ball or any of the maybe 8-10 bullets in the Ruger and just my two bullets in my NMA (3.5-4” NMA and 3-3:5” ROA offhand at 15yds). If I were to see a significant difference I’d contemplate using a ball instead as it’s certainly capable. But from these velocities I’d much rather rely on the large meplat, and for pigs I’ll take the extra mass every single time. My only downfall might be said to be that my lead stash will deplete a little faster.

 

[No second place]

With traditional conicals I’d venture to guess because it’s mostly a curiosity. I’ve not read of many finding them accurate, though that’s quite likely to the plunger design. For myself I find the traditional conicals merely an interest as they’re dismal for hunting with those pointy noses that take up so much room with little mass.

I read of so many claiming to get considerably better accuracy with a ball vs a bullet/conical. I’ve not seen that myself, and I take it that it’s due to the 1:16” twist of both. What I’ve seen is that the with both pistols starting at 25 grns of 3F and working up by 5’s that when their charge was found accuracy stayed the same despite if I used a ball or any of the maybe 8-10 bullets in the Ruger and just my two bullets in my NMA (3.5-4” NMA and 3-3:5” ROA offhand at 15yds). If I were to see a significant difference I’d contemplate using a ball instead as it’s certainly capable. But from these velocities I’d much rather rely on the large meplat, and for pigs I’ll take the extra mass every single time. My only downfall might be said to be that my lead stash will deplete a little faster.

I read in one of my War of Northern aggression books that bullets popularity came from them being union issue during the war. They were said to run tests that proved Conicals gave better penetration than ball.True or not history.Have observed modern tests show same results. Modern day use for NMLRA/NRA match use I`m not aware of any current Master or High Master shooter using Conicals in revolver matches. Yes, they are legal in both Traditional and Open Divisions. Only aware of one Champion using Conicals. Charlie Haffner .Jr...He told me the revolver was custom built w/ special Conical reamed cylinder and special twist barrel. He insisted it would be useless in the factory guns if match accuracy is needed. Consider that we try for a minimum 1.5in. group at 25yds and 2.5in at 50yds....c

 

[rodwha]

I read in one of my War of Northern aggression books that bullets popularity came from them being union issue during the war. They were said to run tests that proved Conicals gave better penetration than ball.True or not history.Have observed modern tests show same results. Modern day use for NMLRA/NRA match use I`m not aware of any current Master or High Master shooter using Conicals in revolver matches. Yes, they are legal in both Traditional and Open Divisions. Only aware of one Champion using Conicals. Charlie Haffner .Jr...He told me the revolver was custom built w/ special Conical reamed cylinder and special twist barrel. He insisted it would be useless in the factory guns if match accuracy is needed. Consider that we try for a minimum 1.5in. group at 25yds and 2.5in at 50yds....c

Indeed they did and do penetrate much better than a ball up until you put a hollow cavity on the nose. This wasn’t ever in question though.

As to a ball being prevalent in these matches, sure. Same with the anemic charges necessary it seems to achieve this. Not really sure where that was going, but ok.

One could easily ask why an anemic charge with a subpar projectile. It only has its place in a match or just plinking for fun whereas traditional conicals are, well, traditional for one, but break it free from such a tiny niche. Powder puff loads and a ball won’t do much for anyone needing it to, well, unless you’re maybe as close to Lincoln and deciding to do something nefarious...

 

[YJake]

My interest in trying the Kerr was based upon the period consensus that conicals provided better penetration. I had planned to use the conicals in my 1858 while carrying it as a sidearm on black powder hunts. If I can find a conical that shoots well to 25 yards I had planned to buy a mould and carry them while deer/feral hog hunting for a backup shot(s).

-Jake

 

[Eras Gone]

Conical bullets were the norm in percussion revolvers back in the day. That is what were issued in pratically all ready made commercial and government cartridges at the time. Sam Colt also only used conicals at the Colt Cartridge Works. The Kerr bullet is a British design intended for the imported Kerr revolvers, however it is an effective bullet in any .44 caliber percussion revolver. The ready made cartriges were pre-lubed, even those made by Colt.

 

[rodwha]

My interest in trying the Kerr was based upon the period consensus that conicals provided better penetration. I had planned to use the conicals in my 1858 while carrying it as a sidearm on black powder hunts. If I can find a conical that shoots well to 25 yards I had planned to buy a mould and carry them while deer/feral hog hunting for a backup shot(s).

-Jake

Are you wanting to stay with a traditional conical for that revolver? Pointy bullets aren’t well known for delivering grievous wounds. It’s literally the worst design for slow moving projectiles. For myself it’s the hogs mostly that had me looking for the best bullet I can use, and I’m nearly there with some further powder testing. I found that both my ROA and NMA have a more accurate charge that’s fairly heavy (30/35 grns) and it does equally well with each bullet I’ve tried compared to a ball. I intend to fill all but 1/8” of my chambers with lead. It’s looking as though it will weigh somewhere between 210-240 grns. So far this is what my math has figured up but I’m not set on some measurements (add a bit to the lube groove and maybe increase the meplat), but I also have a new powder measure that I’ve modified to help me eyeball 2.5 grn increments so those accurate powder charges I found might well differ a bit.

This is a design I never had Accurate Molds make for me and is my starting point for my new universal hunting bullet. When all is said and done I will use epoxy on the rams to create the nose profile so it doesn’t deform it upon loading. By my reckoning comparing similar loads with data my NMA should perform like the .45 Schofield and the ROA like the original .45 Colt (the powder charges of 3F Olde Eynsford weigh ~33 and 38 grns). That’s plenty of stomp.

For hunting I’d take the Lee RN over a pointy bullet. Inexpensive mold.

 

[Bad Karma]

That’s a great bullet. In my mold the driving bands are .458 and the base is .450”. They fit perfectly in my .456” chambers even when fouled and they aren’t too big for the .454 chambers of the old Army. The only niggle I have is that the base could be a bit longer than it is to allow the bullet to sit straight in the chambers prior to ramming it home. As it is, care must be taken to ensure it’s not entering the chambers off plumb. It really likes an over powder card for best accuracy.