Kibler Hawken?

[Indy Durtdigger]

I decided to go with the 1970's era full stock flintlock Hawken fantasy gun. Build in progress.
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At least those are nice looking. I picked up one someone made in that time frame that can only be described as a Colonial/fowler/musket/rifle thingy. Originally had plans to rework it entirely but finally decided someone put a ton of effort into building it. Even though it's all wrong all I need it to do is be functional so just fixed some egregious errors in the build and she's waiting on better weather to get back at it as intended.

 

[beardedhorse]

John Brown, Mormon soldier used a 66 cal. fullstock Hawken with scroll trigger guard and Tennesse cheek piece. The "super" Hawken Sam recalled at an older age was maybe .69 caliber and made to defend against Arikaras shooting down on their keelboats when William Ashley's group was attacked. We don 't know if it was full or half stock or flint or percussion. Myths die hard. The old belief that all fullstock Hawkens had flat to the wrist trigger guards and Tennessee cheek pieces and all later half stock Plains Hawkens had scroll trigger guards and beaver tail cheek pieces doesn't hold water.. There are examples of actual rifles to dispel these stereotypes. Also evidence that the 1803 half stock Harper's Ferry rifles never went wirh Lewis and Clark's Corp of Discovery. Later half stock Sam Hawken Plain rifles would have been 53 caliber and 1 in 48 inch twist accordingly to Art Ressel of the modern Hawken Shop formerly in St. Louis. Jim Gordon's book of Great guns of the Old West shows some of the many original Hawkens from his museum - both full and half stock. Jim Kibler's Hawken kit will be decided from a myriad of possible artifacts. Can hardly wait to see.

 

[Packrat]

When I was 20, I humped a 26 Pound M-60 < it was tiering, but I did it. Had a custom-built Pennsylvania rife build, C weigh barbell, extra-long, My Last of the Mohicans rifle. Finally sold it as it was too heavy. About 10 pounds. Not getting any younger

 

[yellowhammer]

When I was 20, I humped a 26 Pound M-60 < it was tiering, but I did it. ...

My old dad was a drill instructor in the Korean Conflict. One of their tasks was to quickly sort out and identify the "Moose" dudes who would be assigned the BARs at the squad level LOL. From James Ballou's book: "A typical BAR gunner of the Korean War carried the twelve-magazine belt and combat suspenders, with three or four extra magazines in pockets. Extra canteens, .45 pistol, grenades, and a flak vest added still more weight."

Quite a load compared to my little .45 SMR

 

[Philip Lebow]

Re Hawkens. built a Hawken Shop kit for a customer. As I am no expert, it looked pretty much like the photos of real ones I studied.
Heavy thing. .54 Cal. A bench rifle for an old fart like me, as I have a metal left arm bone. Customer loved it.
I built myself a Chambers American Jaeger. Much lighter! Anyway, did not draw an elk tag, and the shots in AZ are 500-600 yards.
Suppository guns are what is needed. And, Im too old to hike the mountains and valleys anymore to get close enough for an ML. Phoo. !

Although of no relevance, although I work my guys hard, on Friday at noon, they can work on their own stuff until closing, as do I.
How I find the time to build for myself.
And since we are closed on weekends, they may come in work on their own stuff. Frequently it is just my CNC programmer getting
ready for the next week however.....without distractions of customers...yes he's paid for that!

 

[Patched]

John Brown, Mormon soldier used a 66 cal. fullstock Hawken with scroll trigger guard and Tennesse cheek piece. The "super" Hawken Sam recalled at an older age was maybe .69 caliber and made to defend against Arikaras shooting down on their keelboats when William Ashley's group was attacked. We don 't know if it was full or half stock or flint or percussion. Myths die hard. The old belief that all fullstock Hawkens had flat to the wrist trigger guards and Tennessee cheek pieces and all later half stock Plains Hawkens had scroll trigger guards and beaver tail cheek pieces doesn't hold water.. There are examples of actual rifles to dispel these stereotypes. Also evidence that the 1803 half stock Harper's Ferry rifles never went wirh Lewis and Clark's Corp of Discovery. Later half stock Sam Hawken Plain rifles would have been 53 caliber and 1 in 48 inch twist accordingly to Art Ressel of the modern Hawken Shop formerly in St. Louis. Jim Gordon's book of Great guns of the Old West shows some of the many original Hawkens from his museum - both full and half stock. Jim Kibler's Hawken kit will be decided from a myriad of possible artifacts. Can hardly wait to see.

For anyone interested…there is a dirt cheap copy of the referenced book by James D. Gordon…on eBay for $350 plus tax, $15 shipping…otherwise it’s $500 everywhere you can find it…

Incredibly great endeavor and book about a priceless collection.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

For anyone interested…there is a dirt cheap copy of the referenced book by James D. Gordon…on eBay for $350 plus tax, $15 shipping…otherwise it’s $500 everywhere you can find it…

Incredibly great endeavor and book about a priceless collection.

Yikes. Does one expand their knowledge base or their collection of tools and toys at the cost of ignorance?

 

[brazosland]

He’s saying to himself, “ Those Jerimiah Johnson boomer boys had their shot at Hawkenmania and blew it with cheap Spanish imports and fights over fur trade fantasies.”
He’ll definitely do his homework thoroughly and offer something authentic and usable.

I disagree with this post. I’m a huge fan of all things Kibler, but his guns are not focused on strict historical accuracy.

Maybe in this case he will be, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

I disagree with this post. I’m a huge fan of all things Kibler, but his guns are not focused on strict historical accuracy.

Maybe in this case he will be, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

This thread has become an informational piece as much as anything. Are you just referring to the use of modern cheats in the kits he offers to get the job done for us less skilled or time deprived types or actual historical inaccuracies in the outward appearance/design?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I disagree with this post. I’m a huge fan of all things Kibler, but his guns are not focused on strict historical accuracy.

Maybe in this case he will be, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

Can you elaborate on the historical inaccuracies of the 4 current offerings?

 

[brazosland]

Can you elaborate on the historical inaccuracies of the 4 current offerings?

Neither the Colonial nor the Woodsrunner were patterned after a specific style or fashion of gun. Even Mr K opined on this when the Colonial first hit the market. They are both sort of generic version of rifles from the period. Niether Southern or Northern and not really committed to a certain school. He literally has commented on this forum that he designed the guns based on what he wanted to see.

The SMR is closer to representative of that style. The Fowler is of English styling, not my interest so I have not paid real close attention to it.

 

[Gum Slough Muzzleloader]

@James Kibler is a master gun builder, a walking encyclopedia on early muzzleloaders. I'm not sure what degrees he has. He's a business man. I'm sure he's just a great guy. Look at the kits he has made available for us. I truly enjoy assembling his kits. I probably wouldn't have the time to do the others, I'm sure I'd manage some how. He puts out very helpful videos to walk us through it. I had no mentor in this endeavor. He will help you if you email or call.
He said himself he wanted originals to study, not make an exact replica of. He stated it would not weigh 10 to 13lbs .
I feel that when he releases it to the public it's going to be the best damn Hawken every offerd to folks like us. If you have big bucks and can wait years buy that one or two.
I know that I will by one and probably two. I'd love to have a .54 and a .58
It will be a fun build, a highly functional gun. I'm patiently waiting for the release.
I know the majority of us will deeply appreciate the Hawken Kit. I've always liked Hawken Style Rifles. Probably my favorite. I own 3 of his kits and found a new liking for these American Longrifles, SMR, and yes the Fowler too.
Trust the man. I do.
Maybe if I was a master gun builder I'd feel different, I still don't see how a master gun builder could or would bash his work. He tells us about all his designs, They are very close to originals not 100% identical replicas.

But then again who am I?

GSM

 

[snakebit]

My old dad was a drill instructor in the Korean Conflict. One of their tasks was to quickly sort out and identify the "Moose" dudes who would be assigned the BARs at the squad level LOL. From James Ballou's book: "A typical BAR gunner of the Korean War carried the twelve-magazine belt and combat suspenders, with three or four extra magazines in pockets. Extra canteens, .45 pistol, grenades, and a flak vest added still more weight."

Quite a load compared to my little .45 SMR

Rate of fire just a touch slower though

 

[snakebit]

@James Kibler is a master gun builder, a walking encyclopedia on early muzzleloaders. I'm not sure what degrees he has. He's a business man. I'm sure he's just a great guy. Look at the kits he has made available for us. I truly enjoy assembling his kits. I probably wouldn't have the time to do the others, I'm sure I'd manage some how. He puts out very helpful videos to walk us through it. I had no mentor in this endeavor. He will help you if you email or call.
He said himself he wanted originals to study, not make an exact replica of. He stated it would not weigh 10 to 13lbs .
I feel that when he releases it to the public it's going to be the best damn Hawken every offerd to folks like us. If you have big bucks and can wait years buy that one or two.
I know that I will by one and probably two. I'd love to have a .54 and a .58
It will be a fun build, a highly functional gun. I'm patiently waiting for the release.
I know the majority of us will deeply appreciate the Hawken Kit. I've always liked Hawken Style Rifles. Probably my favorite. I own 3 of his kits and found a new liking for these American Longrifles, SMR, and yes the Fowler too.
Trust the man. I do.
Maybe if I was a master gun builder I'd feel different, I still don't see how a master gun builder could or would bash his work. He tells us about all his designs, They are very close to originals not 100% identical replicas.

But then again who am I?

GSM

Well said buddy.

 

[Patched]

I disagree with this post. I’m a huge fan of all things Kibler, but his guns are not focused on strict historical accuracy.

Maybe in this case he will be, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

Jim’s skill and knowledge are his indisputable creative credentials in a numerous long lineage of American gun makers…so much so that others would do well to copy his designs and style…he authenticates himself by his work…it speaks for itself….had Jim lived in 1760 he would be as distinct as Beck or Dickert or the many others we revere today.

And he makes it readily available to all of us at a reasonable price.
( I have several plank/scratch guns under my belt so know the prices of locks and trigger bars and breech plugs…a hooked patent breech &tang is $93 today a lock is $160 to$300)

Jim’s products are beautiful and a bargain.

 

[Gum Slough Muzzleloader]

Jim’s skill and knowledge are his indisputable creative credentials in a numerous long lineage of American gun makers…so much so that others would do well to copy his designs and style…he authenticates himself by his work…it speaks for itself….had Jim lived in 1760 he would be as distinct as Beck or Dickert or the many others we revere today.

And he makes it readily available to all of us at a reasonable price.
( I have several plank/scratch guns under my belt so know the prices of locks and trigger bars and breech plugs…a hooked patent breech &tang is $93 today a lock is $160 to$300)

Jim’s products are beautiful and a bargain.

Well said.
I agree.
I thank the Man.

 

[brazosland]

Jim’s skill and knowledge are his indisputable creative credentials in a numerous long lineage of American gun makers…so much so that others would do well to copy his designs and style…he authenticates himself by his work…it speaks for itself….had Jim lived in 1760 he would be as distinct as Beck or Dickert or the many others we revere today.

And he makes it readily available to all of us at a reasonable price.
( I have several plank/scratch guns under my belt so know the prices of locks and trigger bars and breech plugs…a hooked patent breech &tang is $93 today a lock is $160 to$300)

Jim’s products are beautiful and a bargain.

None of which addresses my post.

I also agree with you. But I stop at making him a Deity. He is a business man and wants to make money.

So do I. And…I’m glad he does.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Take it easy folks. @brazosland is right that Mr K's kits are more of a general homage to a period and most likely done so to appeal to more present-day customers than a very unique specific copy might. I think his old website is gone that showcased his own work rather than the kits or I'd link it. When it came to the hand built rifles he made they were more or specifically on point if I remember right.

Found it. https://www.jimkibler.net/jims-custom-work.html