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Rangefogger, it could be me, but the negative vibe you project seems a bit apparent regarding these builds. You might be an specially talented builder, but I can not imagine finishing that quickly, and doing the wood justice. Like I said, I might be barking up the wrong tree, and I do hope you enjoy your rifles.

I have worked with wood for may years as I stated, and why would I Want to be negative about something that I am doing for fun and stress relief as well as making rifles for my two boys? I am just a little disappointed but maybe my expectations were too high.
 
I have worked with wood for may years as I stated, and why would I Want to be negative about something that I am doing for fun and stress relief as well as making rifles for my two boys? I am just a little disappointed but maybe my expectations were too high.
One of the things I've learned over the years is, you never know how a curly maple gunstock will turn out until you've finished it. Each piece of maple will take the stains or aqua-fortis differently than a seemingly similar piece of maple.
I once saw a unfinished curly maple stock that had the most fantastic stripe pattern I had ever seen and the price was right. (It had been made for someone who later decided they didn't want it so Tip knocked the price way down.)
I bought it with great expectations.

That wood refused to react with my lye water treatment and it didn't really want to take the alcohol based stains I tried on it. The "dark" stripes refused to fully absorb the stain the way all the other curly maple I've worked with had done in the past.
(No. I did not sand the stock "too smooth" by using fine grit papers. I sanded it to a 220 level and stopped there. I had built over 9 rifles by the time I worked on this one and I know the typical pitfalls when it comes to finishing curly maple.)

It came out OK but no where near what I expected.

South6.jpg



The moral of the story is, until you try to stain and finish the stock, you will never know how it will finely turn out.
 
These “specialty” stocks I ordered also had a few chips of wood busted off, one being on the edge of the ramrod channel of this rifle Which I had to fix by sanding and reshaping the wood on the ramrod channel area. my other kit has a decent size chip busted off on the fine edge where the Butt plate meets the wood. I’m disappointed about the quality of the wood on these kits after forking out an additional $350.00 on top of the extra fancy maple upgrade which is the very best they offer. My intention was to pass these rifles down to my two sons and wanted some real treasures to pass down to them.
I’ve built three kits so far. Another due when 36 caliber barrels are made. My experience is the number one step is to install the butt plate and keep it on. Otherwise careless handling knowingly or unknowingly may result in damage to that very very delicate toe of the SMR. I speak from experience. On my first rifle I had to add a toe plate to fix my error.
 
One thing we struggle with is customer expectations. Especially those with little to no experience. I can say without hesitation, that we make the finest muzzleloading kits available. No others are even close. Not being boastful, but just being honest. For those who have little experience they often don't appreciate what they are getting. I'm not saying we don't sometimes make mistakes, because we do. In those cases, we feel quite bad and immediately try to make it right. Our goal is to make an absolutely perfect product for our customers. Believe me, we work extremely hard and spend LOTS of money to try to attain this goal.

We have great reviews online and photos of extremely well assembled and finished rifles. These are fantastic and really help drive our business, but they can also generate some unrealistic expectations. No, the kit will not assemble itself nor will it wipe your butt when it's finished! There are sometimes minor discrepancies to adjust for while assembling and finishing. We try very hard to make sure these are infrequent and very minor, but nothing ends up being absolutely perfect.

My background is of course making very high-end custom rifles. The same standards I judge these rifles are used to evaluate our kits. So, what I am saying is that if you don't have a great deal of experience I would encourage you to trust us and understand we have your back. We would NEVER attempt to trick a customer. This business is our life and we want every customer to be extremely happy. In fact, this is honestly what drives me personally. With this said, we do have to stand up for ourselves as a business. Some perceive issues when there aren't any. Some become overly concerned about something that shouldn't be. I've taught many classes, some on assembling our kits, which is a great situation, since I can guide students. Not only guide them with technique, but also with what is important and what isn't, and finally how to overcome minor set-backs. I can steer them in such a way that they are trilled with the outcome!

As to the stock in question, I recall it being an exceptionally fine piece of hard sugar maple. Most our wood is red maple. Red maple is a fine stock wood, but sugar maple is king when it can be found. Sugar maple can be a little more difficult to finish in a way that the curl explodes, since there is less stain penetration, but with care it can be done. Using criteria from years of custom rifle building as a guide, I see this piece of wood as being fantastic! I recall even commenting to Katherine how amazing I thought it was. As to the small chip near the buttplate, I think I recall this as well. This should be pretty much gone when the buttplate is installed and the wood / buttplate is filed down. If it doesn't seem to go away, file the edge of the buttplate down a touch! This is just sometimes part of the process.

We are extremely thankful for each and every customer and we tirelessly try to make the absolute best product possible. Business is beyond whatever I ever imagined and we have many exciting things planned for the future.

All the best,
Jim
 
One thing we struggle with is customer expectations. Especially those with little to no experience. I can say without hesitation, that we make the finest muzzleloading kits available. No others are even close. Not being boastful, but just being honest. For those who have little experience they often don't appreciate what they are getting. I'm not saying we don't sometimes make mistakes, because we do. In those cases, we feel quite bad and immediately try to make it right. Our goal is to make an absolutely perfect product for our customers. Believe me, we work extremely hard and spend LOTS of money to try to attain this goal.

We have great reviews online and photos of extremely well assembled and finished rifles. These are fantastic and really help drive our business, but they can also generate some unrealistic expectations. No, the kit will not assemble itself nor will it wipe your butt when it's finished! There are sometimes minor discrepancies to adjust for while assembling and finishing. We try very hard to make sure these are infrequent and very minor, but nothing ends up being absolutely perfect.

My background is of course making very high-end custom rifles. The same standards I judge these rifles are used to evaluate our kits. So, what I am saying is that if you don't have a great deal of experience I would encourage you to trust us and understand we have your back. We would NEVER attempt to trick a customer. This business is our life and we want every customer to be extremely happy. In fact, this is honestly what drives me personally. With this said, we do have to stand up for ourselves as a business. Some perceive issues when there aren't any. Some become overly concerned about something that shouldn't be. I've taught many classes, some on assembling our kits, which is a great situation, since I can guide students. Not only guide them with technique, but also with what is important and what isn't, and finally how to overcome minor set-backs. I can steer them in such a way that they are trilled with the outcome!

As to the stock in question, I recall it being an exceptionally fine piece of hard sugar maple. Most our wood is red maple. Red maple is a fine stock wood, but sugar maple is king when it can be found. Sugar maple can be a little more difficult to finish in a way that the curl explodes, since there is less stain penetration, but with care it can be done. Using criteria from years of custom rifle building as a guide, I see this piece of wood as being fantastic! I recall even commenting to Katherine how amazing I thought it was. As to the small chip near the buttplate, I think I recall this as well. This should be pretty much gone when the buttplate is installed and the wood / buttplate is filed down. If it doesn't seem to go away, file the edge of the buttplate down a touch! This is just sometimes part of the process.

We are extremely thankful for each and every customer and we tirelessly try to make the absolute best product possible. Business is beyond whatever I ever imagined and we have many exciting things planned for the future.

All the best,
Jim

You know jim, I did have higher expectations for the wood on this stock And it did not include “wiping my butt for me”. It’s easy to say that if it was finished correctly or finished by a professional gun smith, or someone who has built 40 rifles or kits that it would look a lot better. Perhaps some things would look better if that were the case, but I don’t believe this to be a matter of how the stock was finished, but the quality of the wood provided. even right out of the box I noticed there wasn’t much figure on this stock for it to be called “specialty grade” I noticed the same when applying water to stock after sanding to reveal some of the figure but there just wasn’t a whole lot there. When I compare the amount of figure in this stock with the amount in the other you sent me which remains unfinished at this point, it just doesn’t hold a candle. Tell you what, I will finish the other stock in the exact same manner that I finished this one and if it doesn’t have more figure than this stock, we can all agree (myself included) that I’m a jerk, but if it looks like a real specialty stock with a good amount of figure throughout the stock, then it will be apparent that it was of much better quality. I will stand up for myself and say this stock was not up to par for what I paid for it. That being said, it is not an ugly or undesirable stock by any means but I would guess this to be fancy maple, or maybe extra fancy, but not specialty, and not nearly as much figure as the other specialty stock you sent me.
 
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I think Zonie makes an excellent point here as well.
One of the things I've learned over the years is, you never know how a curly maple gunstock will turn out until you've finished it. Each piece of maple will take the stains or aqua-fortis differently than a seemingly similar piece of maple.
I once saw a unfinished curly maple stock that had the most fantastic stripe pattern I had ever seen and the price was right. (It had been made for someone who later decided they didn't want it so Tip knocked the price way down.)
I bought it with great expectations.

That wood refused to react with my lye water treatment and it didn't really want to take the alcohol based stains I tried on it. The "dark" stripes refused to fully absorb the stain the way all the other curly maple I've worked with had done in the past.
(No. I did not sand the stock "too smooth" by using fine grit papers. I sanded it to a 220 level and stopped there. I had built over 9 rifles by the time I worked on this one and I know the typical pitfalls when it comes to finishing curly maple.)

It came out OK but no where near what I expected.

View attachment 78795


The moral of the story is, until you try to stain and finish the stock, you will never know how it will finely turn out.
 
8 hours? They must be as Ive read, a mostly finished rifle. Id like to go this route for the rifle my grandson wants. I want to give him one for Xmas, but dont know if Ill have time to do a more involved kit like my previous build.
I'm not sure but I think his kits are pretty much sand, stain, & assemble.
 
I just read the whole thread and looked at the pictures. The only thing that disappoints me is the fact that apparently even better grades of wood are offered via phone order only and that nobody told me this when I ordered my colonial a few months back!

That's OK, I'll know for my next order!

One thing we struggle with is customer expectations.

Since I deal extensively in customer expectation management, my suggestion, if I may, would be to put additional photos on the product pages showing the different grades of wood, and maybe a few next to each other in un-finished condition. The photos that are shown when you click on each wood type are but one example, and all are finished differently with different degrees of aging, etc. Extra special, super fine, custom order maple? Send a photo of the blank via email and require customer approval. Throw an extra $25 on the price for your time.
 
I have worked with wood for may years as I stated, and why would I Want to be negative about something that I am doing for fun and stress relief as well as making rifles for my two boys? I am just a little disappointed but maybe my expectations were too high.
I would love to see some photographs of other gunstocks you have finished where the wood was up to or exceeded your expectations. Please try and take better photos than the ones in post number 11. The gun really blends into the background and really doesn’t show off the stock, at least in my opinion. Difficult to tell what you actually have.
 
Okay, I've tried very hard and I don't think I can help you out. I stand behind my comments and I think you do too. So, if you have any needs for kits in the future you might want to check with the many other suppliers. Hopefully your experience with them will be better.

Jim

Jim, I have to say I have been a stupid A-hole and like I said earlier a jerk... after working the stock more and more this afternoon/evening, burnishing and adding more coats of Permalyn it is beginning to pop just like you said it would, and I’m sure it will turn out to be one of the most beautiful pieces of wood I’ve ever laid eyes on. I owe you and Katherine as well as your staff, every apology in the world and do not blame you one bit for wishing not to do business with me in the future. Man, was I wrong. If I could delete my comments I would in a heartbeat, but at least maybe this thread will serve as a lesson to other newbies who think they were “ripped off”, or their stock wasn’t as good as promised. I’m sorry for being a jerk and a total moron, and hope you will forgive my stupidity and ignorance.

Brandon
 
Jim, I have to say I have been a stupid A-hole and like I said earlier a jerk... after working the stock more and more this afternoon/evening, burnishing and adding more coats of Permalyn it is beginning to pop just like you said it would, and I’m sure it will turn out to be one of the most beautiful pieces of wood I’ve ever laid eyes on. I owe you and Katherine as well as your staff, every apology in the world and do not blame you one bit for wishing not to do business with me in the future. Man, was I wrong. If I could delete my comments I would in a heartbeat, but at least maybe this thread will serve as a lesson to other newbies who think they were “ripped off”, or their stock wasn’t as good as promised. I’m sorry for being a jerk and a total moron, and hope you will forgive my stupidity and ignorance.

Brandon
Yep, it is a kit. Assembly and finishing required. Final product will depend on the skill of the ‘builder’. Glad you discovered this before using the stock for firewood. This isn’t an instant gratification hobby.
 
"Jim, I have to say I have been a stupid A-hole and like I said earlier a jerk."

I've not seen this too frequently, someone back tracking and offering an apology. I'm glad it did not go on and on and on... It was humbling to see.

BTW Rangefogger if we don't know, then we just don't know. Meaning of course you didn't know what to expect from that particular piece of wood and how could you? I spoke to Kiblers when I ordered a kit and turned all the expertise over to Jim. I know I didn't know Jack about it and told him so. If he had any questions on plumbing, then I'm the Guy, but building rifles, nope not me. It's hard to tell a stranger here's my money and take care of my concerns. It's that leap of faith that's not necessarily an easy thing to do. I'd like to see your before and after photos if you don't mind. Best of Luck.
 
Kibler kits opened a door for enthusiasts that love fine rifles but don't have the tools or skills to do a more complicated build. Jim being a high end builder was just the right guy to open that door, he knew exactly what it took to produce kits of this quality, second to none.

I had done two scratch builds and a precarve before I bought a second hand Kibler SMR kit that the previous owner had cracked the forestock on, probably from trying to pull the very tight barrel out of the stock with his fingers. The stock fix was easy and invisible because I knew what to do from my previous experience.

I have more flint and percussion rifles than I can shoot. When I finish my latest Haines rifle I am probably done building, but if I change my mind and the future proposed fowler kit looks like I expect it to, who knows.
 
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