Kibler SMR frizzen broke in two

[JCKelly]

Whatever the heat treat, the whole frizzen is hard.
I'd suggest taking ANY new commercial hard frizzen, clean it perfectly (if you are married) & put it in Wife's oven maybe 2 hours at 350F. Cool it in air. That won't draw the temper so it is too soft to spark but may toughen it enuff it doesn't break.
Wouldn't bother if you have an old Bob Roller lock. That man knows his business.

I sincerely doubt that your favorite lock maker knows how to heat treat properly.
Have seen no evidence that anyone who posts on this site does. Not all that difficult but you do gotta know something about steel.
Even at my first job this not-very-smart young metallurgist was able to convince Black & Decker to properly heat-treat one of their forged cutting ?chisels. My heat treated chisel lasted 'til they were tired of the test, B&D's standard broke & injured the Project Mgr. Sorry Sir, but it did help my credibility. Just simple stuff I learned in met class at Lehigh.

 

[rich pierce]

Gus, like you, I can make parts as needed and am a miser by nature.
that factors into my decision to not deliberately buy spare parts for modern-made locks. I do have about a dozen or more each of extra original parts and mismatched castings for frizzens, mainsprings, cocks, frizzen springs,Sears, and so on. I do buy a half dozen flies from Chambers every decade or so to replace ones somebody lost. I’m not mentioning who!

 

[LRB]

Whatever the heat treat, the whole frizzen is hard.
I'd suggest taking ANY new commercial hard frizzen, clean it perfectly (if you are married) & put it in Wife's oven maybe 2 hours at 350F. Cool it in air. That won't draw the temper so it is too soft to spark but may toughen it enuff it doesn't break.
Wouldn't bother if you have an old Bob Roller lock. That man knows his business.

I sincerely doubt that your favorite lock maker knows how to heat treat properly.
Have seen no evidence that anyone who posts on this site does. Not all that difficult but you do gotta know something about steel.
Even at my first job this not-very-smart young metallurgist was able to convince Black & Decker to properly heat-treat one of their forged cutting ?chisels. My heat treated chisel lasted 'til they were tired of the test, B&D's standard broke & injured the Project Mgr. Sorry Sir, but it did help my credibility. Just simple stuff I learned in met class at Lehigh.

With all due respect, the photos show a pretty coarse grain with inclusions or occlusions. There are traces of more occlusions on the pan, and possibly the plate, both of which of course are of a different steel than the frizzen, but show what I would consider a clue that this particular lock may be suffering overall from poor casting as well as inadequate heat treating. Thermocycling would have refined the grain in the frizzen, but if the parts are poorly cast, thermocycling may not not be enough to over come inclusions or occlusions in critical zones. As well you should know, that break surface on the frizzen should look like velvet rather than a gravel road. Just MHO.

 

[user 34300]

"but show what I would consider a clue that this particular lock may be suffering overall from poor casting as well as inadequate heat treating."

The only cast parts are the frizzen and cock. The rest is all machined from bar stock.

This is a non issue, speculation is irrelevant, Kibler will replace the part for free no muss or fuss. He wants his customers to be happy. I complained about a trigger guard, a new one was in the mail that day, free. Just make the call.

 

[LRB]

"but show what I would consider a clue that this particular lock may be suffering overall from poor casting as well as inadequate heat treating."

The only cast parts are the frizzen and cock. The rest is all machined from bar stock.

This is a non issue, speculation is irrelevant, Kibler will replace the part for free no muss or fuss. He wants his customers to be happy. I complained about a trigger guard, a new one was in the mail that day, free. Just make the call.

So you are telling me that the various pits I see In the the pan and along the edges of it are a figment of my imagination? I am well aware that Mr Kibler will stand behind his product, but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

 

[rich pierce]

So you are telling me that the various pits I see In the the pan and along the edges of it are a figment of my imagination? I am well aware that Mr Kibler will stand behind his product, but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

The plate, frizzen, and cock are castings. So far as I know only Laubach makes one completely by machining (CNC) and forging (mainspring).

 

[JonBishop]

@LRB
No sir, those aren’t pits. Those were small flint fragments. I think the lighting made it look as though they were pits. But you have reminded me to remove the machine marks.

Also to update: I talked to Jim today and told him what had happened. He didn’t hesitate a bit. Said he’s sending a new frizzen tomorrow. He might have hesitated some. I think he was mulling over sending me a whole new lock. Very nice man. Even asked me how the rest of the build was going. I wouldn’t be afraid to get another kit from him or parts. I also told him I posted about this here. He didn’t seem upset. He said casting flaws happen from time to time. I urged him to find my email and look at the pictures. He said he would because he was curious to see. I won’t go into our conversation any longer. I’ll have to say I am very pleased. Thanks all who have posted.

Jon

 

[user 34300]

"So you are telling me that the various pits I see In the the pan and along the edges of it are a figment of my imagination? I am well aware that Mr Kibler will stand behind his product, but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

Wow!

Kibler claims only the casting used are the Frizzen, cock and top jaw. I recall him saying the plate was machined from bar stock in a video. Of the five I have built I have seen no evidence any parts were cast other than the frizzen, cock and top jaw. So yes, any stuff that looks like casting porosity on the plate, in a picture, is dirt.

https://kiblerslongrifles.com/colle...flintlock-3-month-wait?variant=32221827563638

Specifications:

• Fully machined components: Lock plate, tumbler, sear, bridle, sear spring, mainspring, frizzen spring.
• Investment castings used: Frizzen, cock and top jaw. Note, all critical surfaces of the frizzen are machined or surface ground ( bottom of pan cover, sides of frizzen foot and frizzen pivot hole and toe of frizzen). This ensures precise repeatable function.
• Completely interchangeable parts.
• Typical machined tolerances are in the range of +- .001” while critical locations such as pivots are held tighter.
• Frizzens are 1095 steel with a surface carbon boost heat treatment to insure great function.
• Springs designed for optimum performance and manufacturing process guarantees a high degree of consistency.
• Bridle located with pins rather than screws for strength and precision.

 

[Bassdog1]

Glad you got a new frizzen on the way sounds like a great person to deal with. There are good folks still around these days who stand behind their products.

 

[SDSmlf]

"So you are telling me that the various pits I see In the the pan and along the edges of it are a figment of my imagination? I am well aware that Mr Kibler will stand behind his product, but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."
Wow!

Kibler claims only the casting used are the Frizzen, cock and top jaw. I recall him saying the plate was machined from bar stock in a video. Of the five I have built I have seen no evidence any parts were cast other than the frizzen, cock and top jaw. So yes, any stuff that looks like casting porosity on the plate, in a picture, is dirt.

https://kiblerslongrifles.com/colle...flintlock-3-month-wait?variant=32221827563638

Specifications:

• Fully machined components: Lock plate, tumbler, sear, bridle, sear spring, mainspring, frizzen spring.
• Investment castings used: Frizzen, cock and top jaw. Note, all critical surfaces of the frizzen are machined or surface ground ( bottom of pan cover, sides of frizzen foot and frizzen pivot hole and toe of frizzen). This ensures precise repeatable function.
• Completely interchangeable parts.
• Typical machined tolerances are in the range of +- .001” while critical locations such as pivots are held tighter.
• Frizzens are 1095 steel with a surface carbon boost heat treatment to insure great function.
• Springs designed for optimum performance and manufacturing process guarantees a high degree of consistency.
• Bridle located with pins rather than screws for strength and precision.

Someone may have a wet pant leg.

 

[FlinterNick]

Tempering flaw, Jim heat treats his frizzens with an oxy/acetylene torch and quenches in water. That frizzen was likely pulled from a tempering oven to soon. His business is A+, they’ll send you a new one.

 

[Musketeer]

@LRB
Also to update: I talked to Jim today and told him what had happened. He didn’t hesitate a bit. Said he’s sending a new frizzen tomorrow. He might have hesitated some. I think he was mulling over sending me a whole new lock. Very nice man. Even asked me how the rest of the build was going. I wouldn’t be afraid to get another kit from him or parts. I also told him I posted about this here. He didn’t seem upset. He said casting flaws happen from time to time. I urged him to find my email and look at the pictures. He said he would because he was curious to see. I won’t go into our conversation any longer. I’ll have to say I am very pleased. Thanks all who have posted.

Jon

I don't own a Kibler (yet...), but I've heard nothing but good about Jim as a gunmaker and as a person, so this is not surprising. Best wishes on the rest of the build.

 

[JonBishop]

Mr. Kibler is sending me a new one. With virtually no questions asked. I told him what exactly happened and he’s sending me a new frizzen. If you look at my original post, I think I laid it out pretty good. “Is this something I caused?” The man himself said I didn’t. Jim Kibler is a for sure stand up guy. Again, I was worried it was something I did wrong.

Jon

 

[JonBishop]

Someone may have a wet pant leg.

This was uncalled for.

Jon

 

[JonBishop]

I don't own a Kibler (yet...), but I've heard nothing but good about Jim as a gunmaker and as a person, so this is not surprising. Best wishes on the rest of the build.

This my second. The first was a .50 cal Colonial. Very easy to build. My first build was a Track of the Wolf kit. I have posts about it here some months ago. The Kibler is certainly a much easier build.

Jon

 

[LRB]

I never so much as even implied Jim Kibler was anything less than a stand up person with an impeccable and well earned reputation. Top notch, no question. I also said I was judging by the photos, which obviously are misleading, with the exception of the grain structure of the break zone. I still say the grain is much more coarse than ideal. Coarse grain is a weak structure. No matter how much we try, stuff happens, and it can happen to anyone. Even Jim Kibler. The OP was concerned that he may have caused the break. I gave my opinion of the cause with the intent of assuring the OP that it was just a faulty part, and nothing that he caused. If this explanation is not enough to suit you, then that's just tough.

 

[FlinterNick]

I never so much as even implied Jim Kibler was anything less than a stand up person with an impeccable and well earned reputation. Top notch, no question. I also said I was judging by the photos, which obviously are misleading, with the exception of the grain structure of the break zone. I still say the grain is much more coarse than ideal. Coarse grain is a weak structure. No matter how much we try, stuff happens, and it can happen to anyone. Even Jim Kibler. The OP was concerned that he may have caused the break. I gave my opinion of the cause with the intent of assuring the OP that it was just a faulty part, and nothing that he caused. If this explanation is not enough to suit you, then that's just tough.

The grain structure was coarse because the tempering process never made it far up enough, anyone can make that mistake. I use a special jewelers torch for this.

Tempering the foot of the spring up to the seam needs to be done very slowely until the foot pan cover just at the seam is completely purple/blue.. I go for a dark blue. this provides the frizzen with some give, like a spring. I’ve never broken one, but I do understand how it could break.

 

[erhunter]

With all due respect, the photos show a pretty coarse grain with inclusions or occlusions. There are traces of more occlusions on the pan, and possibly the plate, both of which of course are of a different steel than the frizzen, but show what I would consider a clue that this particular lock may be suffering overall from poor casting as well as inadequate heat treating. Thermocycling would have refined the grain in the frizzen, but if the parts are poorly cast, thermocycling may not not be enough to over come inclusions or occlusions in critical zones. As well you should know, that break surface on the frizzen should look like velvet rather than a gravel road. Just MHO.

I thought Kibler CNC machined his locks, why do these look like they are rough cast?

 

[FlinterNick]

I thought Kibler CNC machined his locks, why do these look like they are rough cast?

I don’t think the frizzens are CNC, I work with CNC cutting machines for wood working and I don’t see how the shape can be achieved without adding an incredible cost. It would be more cost effective to cash the frizzens.

Its possible his molds are CNC cut into aluminum or graphite.

 

[EC121]

Early on he said that there was too much waste to try to machine the hammer and the frizzen. Those parts were more cost efficient to cast.