Kibler SMR mysteries

[Mike Lasko]

So I've been to the range 2x now with the newly finished 45 SMR. I had trouble with the trigger not wanting to set the front trigger. Pulled the trigger guard and readjust the screw and think I've got that covered now. Had trouble with the seeing the sights (I'm now 46 years old) and had a slight 45 cut in the brass and polished and man that helped.
My questions:
1. Safety- How far from your powder source is safe when shooting on the range?
2. Loads- I shot 50,55,and 60 grains of 3F goex with round balls and didnt see a huge difference.
3. Sights- The gun shoots 6 inches high with a dead on hold at 50 yards. The sights that came with the kit are relatively fixed. Any ideas besides holding low?
4. Consistent ignition - The first shots were crisp, fast and made that nice "crack". However as I shot I had every third shot or so sound like a "dud". It was weird. I did swab the barrel every 2-3 shots but I noticed a lot of fouling around the lock and on the flint itself with more shooting. How often do you knap the flint? Do you clean that area often? Other tips? I did clean out the touchhole pretty regularly.

Thanks in advance for the advice. I've hunted off and on with muzzleloaders for 15 years or so but its always been just a 1 month seasonal thing. After building this kit, I'm definitely more interested in improving my shooting and using the gun more. I'm primarily a deer hunter but I try to shoot pretty well. These inconsistent sounding shots were a mystery to me.

 

[PghDad]

I had problems with the set trigger on my 45 SMR too. I have a 45 in the "old" configuration- a 46 inch barrel. I can see the sights on that one, and I"m in my late 50's. My 36 cal SMR has the shorter barrel and the sights are less than optimal. I need to change them out, they are just too small. Also, the sight sits right on the balance point, so I think I may move the sight and fill the original with a brass plate.

Powder safety...Keep your container or horn closed or the stopper in at all times unless you're pouring.

Loads...the difference between 50 and 60 is noticeable in power and velocity. Are you sure you're seating the ball all the way down on the charge?

Sights...Get new ones and move the rear sight off the balance point. I can't figure out why they are shipped with those sights. Most people intend to shoot them not hang them on the wall.

Kibler rifles are nice, but not perfect. Expect to fool with it a bit. But you'll get it, keep trying!

 

[TerryK]

Disclaimer, I am not a SMR expert, but I have 400+ balls through it.
I had the same trigger problem after 350 or so shots.. On a guess, I moved the screw until it did not set, then backed it off some (?) amount of turns. That seemed to fix it. I had no issues since then, maybe 50 rounds? Like you said it is a mystery, but somehow after it works again.
My flash hole area gets caked up in 15 rounds or so. I use 4F. At that dirt point I could have a flash and no bang. So I clean the flash hole area with a tooth brush, and poke the vent with a paper clip. That fixes it. I think the vent is a little low, but again I lack expertise. My flash pan is polished to help with cleaning.
For years I had misfires due to light swabbing cleaning. I quit swabbing, and reliability increased dramatically. I don't swab now, but I do blow down the barrel after every shot.
I had williams adjustable peeps drilled and tapped on the barrel. Factory sights were not really considered. I simple can't seem the factory sights well.
As far as powder, mine has a auto close valve, but I put it on a table behind the shooting bench.
I shoot 40 grains 3F goex for practice, and 70 grains to hunt whitetail.
I'll add 445 ball was better than 440. I use 445 and 0.015 prelubed patch.
My SMR is very reliable except for dirty flash hole, and the quirky trigger. I actually thought of calling Kibler, but somehow I have it working again. I wish i could get the set trigger to be heavier, it is pretty light for cold winter shooting. I have a single stage trigger on the woodsrunner, and it is probably 2 pounds and really great.
I run 5 or so patches with simple green and water followed by moosemilk patches at the range. I do the same at home, followed by a few balistrol patches. I toothbrush the lock with simple green and hot water.
I think my SMR is a crazy nice rifle, but it has the same "issues" you have stated.

 

[IanH]

I can see my sights just fine and I'm 48, but I only wear 1.75 diopter cheaters for most things that need to be seen up close. If the sights don't suit you, that's why there are dovetails and dovetail files.

A weak shot is not weak ignition, either you forgot to ram the ball after you long-started it or you thought you did and it hit a crud ring and was way off the powder. Mark your rammer and make certain you're seating all the way, the same way, every time.

Mine has the GM barrel with the ridiculous 1 turn in 70" twist and will not make its best groups with anything below 55 grains of 3F. It really likes 65 and will group near 1 MOA at 100 yards from a bench with that load and the sights it was built with and me shooting it which isn't saying much for the aiming job.

Pan maintenance is very dependent on your priming granulation and relative humidity. On a damp day the pan must be wiped of the post-combustion liquid goo after every shot and also the bottom of the pan and the bottom of the flint. I keep a rag tied to my belt for this. On a dry day using 3F priming I can shoot indefinitely without cleaning and depending on the particular flint rock I'm using either knap off the hard spots on the flint edge every 5-10 shots or don't mess with it until it's too short to spark. Some flints stay sharp all the way down on their own and some stall out on hard spots and get where they quit sparking or spark weakly and must be touched up periodically. You can tell by looking whether a flint needs a quick touch up or not once you get familiar with it.

I too felt the flash hole was too low/lock inletted too high, so I raised the barrel and tang to the limit of the wood (about 1/32") and glass bedded the barrel from the wide part of the tang all the way up past the rear barrel tenon before drilling the pin holes. I'm glad I did. It still is too low by supposed common knowledge but dang it is so fast and reliable I can't tell the difference. I think most of the blather about FH location is just that. If your ignition isn't fast it's likely a different problem like weak lock springs, poor lock geometry, or a problem with the flash hole itself......none of which are problems with a Kibler longrifle. I never have to pick my SMR but have other guns that need it done every shot to be 99% reliable.

Patch lube. For range work I like a liquid lube. Any liquid. Your target will tell you what your gun likes best. A really juicy spit patch is the gold standard of accuracy for me because it isn't too slippery and doesn't dry out quite as fast as many other water-based formulas do. A well-wetted patch precludes the need to wipe the bore until it's time to clean the rifle and will keep the crud ring manageable so you can reliably and consistently seat the ball on the powder charge.

 

[duca]

I shoot about 15 or so rounds with No incident in my Flintlocks at the range. After each shot i blow down the barrel “ I know some people don’t want to hear that “ then I wipe my lock with a rag I have in my belt. When I load my patch is wet! I sometimes get squirted. lol

 

[Daveboone]

Another thing....most having been covered here. When you are shooting for groups...are you bench resting your rifle, or shooting off hand? Even the best off hand shooters can have a tough time seeing a difference in a group size. Shoot from a bench, with the barrel firmly supported on a padded surface...padded but not hard . Sand bag, shooting block with carpet on it, etc. Pad your shoulder unless you are naturally well padded. And relax.

 

[French Colonial]

1, On a woods walk or while hunting your powder horn is under your arm, how close is that? keep a stopper in it.

2, You have not shot it enough, or if you have, not the right patch and ball, keep at it, you will know when the group shrinks to one hole.

3, Take the rear sight in the direction you want the ball to go, sounds like you need to file it down.

4, Who knows? Just a guess but you may be leaving the bore to wet from wiping, wiping brings its own problems to the table unless you know what you are doing, learn to do it properly. See Grenadiers posts for the best instructions you will find for wiping.

 

[TerryK]

The williams sight are drilled and tapped in the barrel. I added a Merit adjustable aperture so the peep hole is variable for a crisp sighting picture. The aperture is easy to adjust for light conditions. It closes to almost nothing to huge.

 

[wiscoaster]

....
3. Sights- The gun shoots 6 inches high with a dead on hold at 50 yards. The sights that came with the kit are relatively fixed. Any ideas besides holding low?
....

I installed new sighs, front and rear, on mine. That kit-provided front sight wasn't tall enough to be filed down far enough. The new sights I put on are taller and allow for more elevation adjustment in either direction, and the front sight is thicker and easier to see in the v-notch. As I recall, they came from Track of the Wolf.

 

[reddogge]

"3. Sights- The gun shoots 6 inches high with a dead on hold at 50 yards. The sights that came with the kit are relatively fixed. Any ideas besides holding low?"

Either put a higher front sight in or file down the rear sight. I'd prefer to put a new front sight in myself.

 

[wiscoaster]

Link to post with reference to the sights I installed here:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/rear-sight.172479/page-3#post-2490870

 

[longcruise]

1, On a woods walk or while hunting your powder horn is under your arm, how close is that? keep a stopper in it. [QUOTE/]

Horns blowing up while worn is not unheard of when shooting flint. A good way to be sure the stopper is in place is to not have a lanyard on the stopper. Pull the stopper with your teeth and hold it there while you load then push it back in with your teeth. Try not to drool!

 

[Mike Lasko]

So thanks so much for all these replies…they are more helpful than you may think. I’m thinking my barrel may have been “wet” with cleaning fluid and possibly causing the dud shots. I didn’t do my drying of the barrel. I just swabbed it a couple times with the same damp clothe and continued to load and shoot. How do y’all swab between shots, if you do?

 

[M. De Land]

I can see my sights just fine and I'm 48, but I only wear 1.75 diopter cheaters for most things that need to be seen up close. If the sights don't suit you, that's why there are dovetails and dovetail files.

A weak shot is not weak ignition, either you forgot to ram the ball after you long-started it or you thought you did and it hit a crud ring and was way off the powder. Mark your rammer and make certain you're seating all the way, the same way, every time.

Mine has the GM barrel with the ridiculous 1 turn in 70" twist and will not make its best groups with anything below 55 grains of 3F. It really likes 65 and will group near 1 MOA at 100 yards from a bench with that load and the sights it was built with and me shooting it which isn't saying much for the aiming job.

Pan maintenance is very dependent on your priming granulation and relative humidity. On a damp day the pan must be wiped of the post-combustion liquid goo after every shot and also the bottom of the pan and the bottom of the flint. I keep a rag tied to my belt for this. On a dry day using 3F priming I can shoot indefinitely without cleaning and depending on the particular flint rock I'm using either knap off the hard spots on the flint edge every 5-10 shots or don't mess with it until it's too short to spark. Some flints stay sharp all the way down on their own and some stall out on hard spots and get where they quit sparking or spark weakly and must be touched up periodically. You can tell by looking whether a flint needs a quick touch up or not once you get familiar with it.

I too felt the flash hole was too low/lock inletted too high, so I raised the barrel and tang to the limit of the wood (about 1/32") and glass bedded the barrel from the wide part of the tang all the way up past the rear barrel tenon before drilling the pin holes. I'm glad I did. It still is too low by supposed common knowledge but dang it is so fast and reliable I can't tell the difference. I think most of the blather about FH location is just that. If your ignition isn't fast it's likely a different problem like weak lock springs, poor lock geometry, or a problem with the flash hole itself......none of which are problems with a Kibler longrifle. I never have to pick my SMR but have other guns that need it done every shot to be 99% reliable.

Patch lube. For range work I like a liquid lube. Any liquid. Your target will tell you what your gun likes best. A really juicy spit patch is the gold standard of accuracy for me because it isn't too slippery and doesn't dry out quite as fast as many other water-based formulas do. A well-wetted patch precludes the need to wipe the bore until it's time to clean the rifle and will keep the crud ring manageable so you can reliably and consistently seat the ball on the powder charge.

Yeah, my GM barreled .45 cal SMR likes 65 grains of 3f and a .018 .445 patched ball. It has a 1-60 pitch for patched balls. The 1-70 is a good patch ball pitch though for .50 cal and above but won't shoot conicals for sour apples most likely. The slower pitch should foul less all else being the same in bore condition and shooting a minute group at 100 yards is a keeper !

 

[DrLaw]

Look at the various muzzle loading supplies websites and get yourself something like this. You need to poke out the vent every now and then to insure ignition. You also need to keep your flint, frizzen (also called the hammer) and pan clean. Swabbing out the barrel is good, but there are other things that get coated with fouling, too. Get a supply of cleaning patches and take some to the range with you. For every three patches you use to swab out the barrel, have an extra one to wipe the pan, frizzen and flint (especially the underside of the flint).

Sighting in the gun will help you develop the load you will want to use for specific distances. Other threads here will have more information about that. Also, at some time, you may want to file your front sight down, but only AFTER you get your most accurate loads determined.

The NMLRA has a great little shooting notebook for recording your loads, shots, powder, ball size, patch size, etc... to help you on this journey. Hope this helps.

The Doc is out now.

 

[French Colonial]

Here is the method espoused by Grenadier1758, I have used it and it works very well.

Using a Jag that is slightly undersized (Like a 50 caliber jag in a 54 caliber barrel) and a patch that is slightly over sized of t-shirt type material, using the MOISTENED patch (this is important, if you can squeeze a drop from it, it is to wet) run it down the barrel.

The patch will be loose enough to slide over the fouling on the way down, pulling upward, the patch will bunch up and pull the fouling up and out of the barrel. Another edit here...you will not need to wipe with a dry patch, one and done.

To get the patches just damp I soaked a bunch of them for a couple of seconds in a mixture of 10% Ballistol and 90% water and, this is the important part, squeezed all the excess out using a potato ricer until no more liquid came out of them. You can then store them in a tin until ready to use at the range.

I have also turned a couple of the jags down by chucking in the drill press and running a file over them.

USUALLY I do not wipe, I like blowing down the barrel between shots to keep the fouling soft as that has worked for me for decades but some freak out about it so I thought I would try Grenadier1758's method and it works.

A potato ricer
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Zulay-Ki..._s_n&msclkid=0e280ffa99d7164784836a7aa36462c0

 

[wiscoaster]

.... How do y’all swab between shots, if you do?

I don't swab between each shot. Only when ramming starts getting hard. Five shots, maybe. Then it's a wet patch twice (once in each direction) followed up by a dry patch once before reloading. As posted above, cleaning jag is slighly undersized for caliber and patch is slightly overthick for caliber. I wet with moose milk, or use a pre-moistened patch. Haven't seen much difference in results.

 

[Patched]

Mine has the GM barrel with the ridiculous 1 turn in 70" twist and will not make its best groups with anything below 55 grains of 3F.

Of course you must mean “ridiculous“ as to how much more powder you can use without stripping the rifling ….those slower twists are made to pour the coals to a shot….

 

[LSB]

So thanks so much for all these replies…they are more helpful than you may think. I’m thinking my barrel may have been “wet” with cleaning fluid and possibly causing the dud shots. I didn’t do my drying of the barrel. I just swabbed it a couple times with the same damp clothe and continued to load and shoot. How do y’all swab between shots, if you do?

I swab with a patch or two saturated with rubbing alchohol. Then I dry the bore with at least two dry patches. The alchohol tends to dry out very quickly on its own but I feel better using dry patches to make sure the bore is dry. This has never given me any problems and I might add I only do this while shooting at the range. If I have to reload when hunting, I do not swab the barrel.

 

[M. De Land]

Here is the method espoused by Grenadier, I have used it and it works very well.

Using a Jag that is slightly undersized (Like a 50 caliber jag in a 54 caliber barrel) and a patch that is slightly over sized of t-shirt type material, using the MOISTENED patch (this is important, if you can squeeze a drop from it, it is to wet) run it down the barrel.

The patch will be loose enough to slide over the fouling on the way down, pulling upward, the patch will bunch up and pull the fouling up and out of the barrel.

To get the patches just damp I soaked a bunch of them for a couple of seconds in a mixture of 10% Ballistol and 90% water and, this is the important part, squeezed all the excess out using a potato ricer until no more liquid came out of them. You can then store them in a tin until ready to use at the range.

I have also turned a couple of the jags down by chucking in the drill press and running a file over them.

USUALLY I do not wipe, I like blowing down the barrel between shots to keep the fouling soft as that has worked for me for decades but some freak out about it so I thought I would try Grenadiers method and it works.

If blowing down bore floats your boat it's easy enough to make a blow tube so you can do so safely off to the side keeping your head out of bore line.