Kibler vs. TVM.

[Mike in FL]

Based on the value and quality Jim Kibler offers, I was all set to get a Woodsrunner even though I prefer a barrel longer than 39". All the reviews and videos of building of a Kibler is proof enough they are likely the best deal for an historically correct and gorgeous rifle. I am not at all handy. I mean NOT AT ALL. So I was going to get an "in the white" kit.
Then I happened to see that TVM will make a gun for me completely finished with Siler lock and name brand barrel, custom length and swamped, choice of hardware. Basic Southern has 36 or 42" barrel. The 42 is more aesthetically pleasing at least to me, but 44 would be even prettier, which they offer at extra cost. Choice of wood. Just comparing their basic Southern plain maple or walnut or late PA with Jimr's Woodsrunner or Colonial, a finished TVM rifle is just a tad more money with more possibility to upgrade.
What would you do? Take a look at Tenn Valley Mfg if you haven't seen them. U had one many years agi in .36. The Poor Boy model, no entry thimble, very plain wood, no toe plate. But looked good because of the longer barrel.
All I have now is a Pedersoli GPR flinter. It is so very heavy and doesn't have the graceful lines of a longrifle.

 

[TDM]

Mike, there’s been some controversy over TVM’s quality control in recent post. I can’t prove or disprove that. But I have a Kibler Woodsrunner and SMR with another Woodsrunner on the way. With the Woodsrunner all you have to do is cleanup the brass, draw file the barrel, cut the pins to length and finish the stock as you like it. The Woodsrunner gets my vote.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

I hate to say it … but if you look around, there are some TVM’s that are fantastic (Had one, but sold it, a lefty one too!) and then there are some out there (just recently within the last 2-months and up to a few years ago) that are soooooo bad that the Buyer’s either have to send them back, or EAT IT AND ACCEPT THE POOR BUILD ISSUES, or possibly PAY to have someone else fix their mistakes.

The only way I can interpret it, is that TVM has gotten ‘so big or busy’ that they have other builders - sub-contractors - now making some contract guns for them. So all the guns go out with ‘M. Avance’ marked on the barrel, but Matt himself may not personally see the gun before it is sent on to the customer!

In my opinion, that is just wrong!

What I would advise you to do, is determine what school or model of longrifle do YOU like the best? You really can’t compare the 3 Kibler longrifles as being the same … you have an early Colonial (wide butt, but heavier early rifle), or the shorter and trimmer Woodsrunner one (that weighs less [but to me I HATE the shape of the ‘rounded’ comb on the butt stock, ‘butt ugly’ to me!!!!]), to their Southern Mountain Rifle, which is a different rifle altogether, never mind made in smaller calibers.

With an 18-month wait, and questionable receipt of the said gun, and there’s no way I could tell you to go with the TVM over a Kibler!

What I would advise you is, what do YOU want it for? Hunting or target? If hunting, I personally would go with the 54 or 58. Then look at either the Colonial or the Woodsrunner and see which stock shape YOU like.

 

[IanH]

I too have an SMR and a Woodsrunner, but no experience with TVM.

I just got into flintlocks this year and pored over the forums and the 'tube looking for good insight, unfortunately the availability of parts has been the big hangup for a lot of kit companies. I looked at quite a few and after pretty much everyone said "Just get a Kibler" for my first kit, I did just that. I got some books and read them, then built one from a plank and parts and it turned out great, but completing a Kibler kit after watching all of his videos on the subject is a master class in how to PROPERLY make a longrifle.

 

[Mgbruch]

can't tell exactly, by the photos on their site, but the lock on their southern guns looks like a modified Siler. I could be wrong. But if so... The Siler is patterned after a Germanic lock, and Southern guns used English locks. Not Germanic.

 

[SDSmlf]

I was recently asked by a friend my opinion and if I could help correct some issues with a recent TVM built gun. Complied a punch list of items needing to be addressed that seemed to include most problems sited in few of the recent threads on TVMs on this forum. Was not a project I was willing to take on. Suggested they try to get their money back, but that wasn’t going to happen, except at a deep discount. Doubt they will be a repeat TVM customer.

Wish you luck if you go the TVM route. If a Kibler intrigues you, and you are truly not handy enough to finish one yourself, sit back and wait for one to come up for sale here. There seems to be a number of folks that love to finish a Kibler and sell it for enough to cover the cost to buy another. Way better option than a TVM from what I have seen.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[IanH]

can't tell exactly, by the photos on their site, but the lock on their southern guns looks like a modified Siler. I could be wrong. But if so... The Siler is patterned after a Germanic lock, and Southern guns used English locks. Not Germanic.

It's styled after a Ketland lock that would have been imported and used on SMRs at the time.

 

[Mike in FL]

I mean although I wouldn't even try to fit parts into wood, I'm pretty sure I can finish the end the white Woodsrunner. Thanks again.

 

[smokepolehall]

I used to stop by TVM's shop in Ms. when he bought it from Jack Gardner who build my Tn. Poor Boy .40. M Vance has since moved to Natchez n taken on several more builders said loosely. Kiblers are as good n better than most of those coming out of the TVM shop. Myself there would not be a second guess on getting a Kibler kit or in the white.

 

[Art Caputo]

I can’t speak for the recent TVM’s (<10 years), but the three finished rifles (Virginia, SMR, Lancaster), that I own were very nicely constructed, finished, and shoot as well as any of my ML’s….They continue to serve me well. The Virginia rifle was ordered directly from TVM, with the other two bought slightly used in excellent condition. The Virginia rifle took just over a year for delivery, but I was very pleased with the rifle. A couple of years ago I acquired a Kibler Colonial kit that I finished myself. I’m not an experienced builder with limited skills relevant to building ML’s, but the Kibler kit was easy enough to assemble and finish. I acquired two barrels for the Kibler which are interchangeable, and finished to match(50/58 cal). The only carving I attempted was a simple thumb-notch on the sliding patch box, but the plain appearance seems to suit the style of the rifle well. The quality of the components and fitment is excellent, and, it’s shooting performance is superb.
If Kibler offers a rifle that works for you in styling and ergonomics, it’s hard to go wrong…Particularly with the shorter wait time. If you are nervous about your skills to assemble/finish the rifle, consider getting it “in the white”.

 

[wiscoaster]

An in-the-white kit from Kibler is a pretty steep premium to the kit price and you still don't get a completely finished rifle. Most of the time spent that a Kibler kit builder puts in is the same time you're going to put in on the same rifle in-the-white.

 

[Kmcmichael]

The Woodsrunner is practically in the white all ready. There are dozens of us that have already put one together.
i spent more time fitting the rod and patch box than the whole gun.
If one can take apart a gun in the white, you can assemble a Woodsrunner.

 

[RMH]

I talked with the folks at TVM before I was aware of the problems that have cropped up. They were less than helpful, told me a minimum of 2 year wait and wanted the money in advance.

I decided to tackle a Kibler instead. My first was the 44" barreled SMR. While I had some challenging moments it was not bad to finish at all. I then ordered the Woodsrunner. It practically assembled itself. The inlets were so precice and clean. Zero chisel work needed for the lock or trigger plate and very minor work to fit the ramrod thimbles. Both rifles shoot very well. The Woodsrunner with the shorter barrel shoulders and handles like a dream. I think you would love either model.

 

[lou puleff]

Based on the value and quality Jim Kibler offers, I was all set to get a Woodsrunner even though I prefer a barrel longer than 39". All the reviews and videos of building of a Kibler is proof enough they are likely the best deal for an historically correct and gorgeous rifle. I am not at all handy. I mean NOT AT ALL. So I was going to get an "in the white" kit.
Then I happened to see that TVM will make a gun for me completely finished with Siler lock and name brand barrel, custom length and swamped, choice of hardware. Basic Southern has 36 or 42" barrel. The 42 is more aesthetically pleasing at least to me, but 44 would be even prettier, which they offer at extra cost. Choice of wood. Just comparing their basic Southern plain maple or walnut or late PA with Jimr's Woodsrunner or Colonial, a finished TVM rifle is just a tad more money with more possibility to upgrade.
What would you do? Take a look at Tenn Valley Mfg if you haven't seen them. U had one many years agi in .36. The Poor Boy model, no entry thimble, very plain wood, no toe plate. But looked good because of the longer barrel.
All I have now is a Pedersoli GPR flinter. It is so very heavy and doesn't have the graceful lines of a longrifle.

Buy a Kibler and have someone finish it for you IMO !

 

[Dave Marsh]

Go Kibler. You won't be sorry.

 

[smokepolehall]

I will add this although i don't own one, i have saw & inspected the Kibler Woodsrunner. If you can sand a little n stain n assemble it. You would be way ahead of the game. 39" barrel is fairly long, certainly will burn a good load of powder if that is what you are in doubt about. I at 73 no longer want to shoot shoulder thumpers/bangers. A smooth recoil is much better n nicer.

 

[Bucolic Buffalo]

Call Kibler's Longrifles. Ask about the pricing on the in-the-white on all three models. You are not limited to the Woodsrunner. The SMR has a longer barrel and is very graceful and light. Some of that will depend upon the caliber.

Sometimes, they will have an in-the-white rifle listed in their specials and quick ship deals. Check the website regularly.

 

[Ed Pilkington]

Kibler cookies whup up on Nabisco any day of the week. Works of art they can be, slender light and balanced. My SMR .40 brings tears to my eyes. I bought it as a blemished kit, customized it like i thought Dan’l would and first shot from “Deathwind” at 35 yrds was smack dab in the black while the second split the stick.

 

[longcruise]

a finished TVM rifle is just a tad more money with more possibility to upgrade.
What would you do? Take a look at Tenn Valley Mfg if you haven't seen them.

I guess I'm being nit picky but TVM. Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading and Tennessee Valley Manufacturing TennesseValley Manufacturing
Are two different companies. You might give TV Manufacturing a call. You can't get much info from the website. TV Manufacturing is owned by Jack Garner.

 

[wiscoaster]

...

I decided to tackle a Kibler instead.

Smart move!!