Kit or Finished Fowler for first flinter?

[ItsOddball]

Howdy everyone. I am considering purchasing my first flintlock "something" soon here. I am moving to Montana in about 2 weeks, and finally have enough funds to purchase either a nice gun or kit.. which brings me to my question.

Should I purchase a kit or a finished gun? I have zero experience in building guns or kits, or what have you. I am unsure how difficult it is to build one yourself, and/or what tools are needed. What about In the White? I plan on getting a TVM Tulle Fusil either finished, or in one of the kit options, as I've heard very good things about TVM.. now just to decide what what to do!

Any help would be great!

 

[jamieorr]

Tough decision, almost impossible to get it wrong!

I bought my first flintlock in February, a Lyman production gun. My reasoning was that I didn't want to spend too much to find out if I liked it, and also I wanted to go shooting rather than start another project.

So yes, I think now that flintlocks are a great way to go, and I'll be looking at a kit, maybe a fowler, down the road. Meanwhile I'm enjoying the Lyman.

 

[cositrike]

Get one ready built and go shoot it. Learn about loads patching etc, then start thinking about building one if you want to. Have some great shooting times first
Just my opinion
Simon

 

[No Deer]

I am impatient. When I got my trade gun I looked at a kit. I actually bought it, but when I got it home, I was looking at it and thought "I don't even know where to start this" plus, I wanted it "NOW". I talked to the guy that I bought the kit from and he agreed to build it for me. Was lucky, only took about 90 days to get it back completed. I was anxious every day because I wanted it "NOW!" :rotf:

So, in answer to your question, I would suggest you ask yourself, how soon do you want it? Can you build it fast enough, or can you wait long enough for someone else to build it, or do you want to start shooting it "NOW"? If you can't wait, then as was suggested a production gun is a good way to get started, learn how to shoot a flinter, and meanwhile you can save and get either a kit or get one built for you.

 

[thecapgunkid]

Yup. Finished first until you get both your feet on the ground and than work your way into kits as you move along.

Your journey might take you through guns you can trade up. I have been bouncing around muzzleloading for about forty years and only now have taken on building a gun.

You might consider taking home a gun or two to re-finish or improve first, assembling tools and practicing on scraps and other small projects first, then trying for that kit you have to have as you find it along the way.

If you want best bang for the buck, (no pun intended) then learn to save up, trade up, and work gradually. No one is going to see your mistakes like you will, and no one will fall in love with your gun like you will.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I got started a bit bass-akwards. I was working part -time in a gunshop and a fellow came in to sell a bunch of guns, including a POS flintlock. Well all the hardware was good, but he'd messed up the stock, so the shop just gave it to me, and I bought Dixon's book, and restocked the parts. All I had to buy was a few hand tools and a stock...not much $$$. This was 1992 and I also had just seen Last of The Mohicans, and I wasn't doing living history at that time....so no rush to finish.

I would not recommend dumping the full cash on all the parts and beginning that way. Life gets in the way and before you know it, it's hunting season and your rifle or gun is nowhere near finished.

So as the guys suggest, get a good quality finished gun, and learn that and have fun, THEN you'll have a better idea of what features you like and want when it comes time to build one.

LD

 

[Artificer]

Here are my suggestions to buy your first flint gun in order from the best way to start at the top of the list.

1. Buy the best Used or New gun you can afford. That way you won't be frustrated with poor quality stuff, that will have to be fixed before the gun works correctly. You will also HAVE a gun to shoot and you can take more time to decide how you are going to get your NEXT gun. :grin:

2. For most people, I think the best next step is buy a completely assembled gun that needs the wood and metal finished. This requires the least amount of tools and experience and will give you some idea if you want to pursue doing more difficult work. It will also give you a chance to learn disassembly and assembly of the parts. The real plus here is the lock, barrel and trigger will be in the proper positions to function correctly. IF you decide this is all the further you can or want to go, you have a functioning gun. It will give you pride of ownership when you do a good job of finishing the wood and metal.

And now a few (rather a bunch of) words on kits:

A. I have forgotten how many unfinished kits I've seen people buy, get frustrated with, and never complete; since I completed my 18 month Apprenticeship in 1974 to build and work modern guns. Many folks wind up having somebody else finish such kits, if they ever get the kit finished at all. That can and will sometimes/often cost more than an already completed gun.

B. You will not save ANY money if you buy all the tools and books needed to build a kit into a complete gun. Actually, it will cost you more than buying a similar quality complete gun. I suggest you only go this route IF you think you want to build more than one kit and go even further.

C. A real problem on some kits is once you get the barrel and tang inlet, the lock may need to go back further to align with the breech and vent hole, than what is allowed by the Lock Panel. So the best advice is TRY to buy a good kit that has all the parts with it. Oversize lock panels are better than ones that are shaped down a lot in a kit, especially on the first kit/s you assemble. A lot of people recommend Jim Chambers' complete kits as a good kit to begin with, though there are other good ones out there.

D. There are people who will inlet a barrel for you. Some will drill a ramrod hole for you. Some will do these things and inlet the lock and do other work as well. There is no shame in having someone do the work on a kit that you don't feel comfortable doing.

E. PRACTICE cutting dovetails on a piece of scrap barrel or metal before you do it the first time on a barrel. Dovetailing the barrel lugs is the next step and if you mess up a little, it will covered by the forearm of the stock. Save the sight dovetails for last, after you have some practice doing them.

One important final tip on some of the "Factory Made Kits." I am referring to many of the kits that were made in Italy over the years. It used to be common practice that when a stock wasn't inlet or cut just right, rather than throwing it away it went into the kits. When something was a bit wrong with the Lock, or barrel or other parts, they went into kits. I am not sure if they have stopped that common practice in the last 10 to 15 years, but don't be surprised you get something like that in a "Factory Kit." Oh, I believe there is a special place in the Underworld for those who sold BP Revolver Kits and especially the "Brass" Frame BP Revolver Kits, when those kits were not pre-assembled and fitted. Those kits may not have been impossible to fit by someone who was really expert on fitting and assembling revolvers, but they were close to it.

Gus

 

[lhw123]

I jumped into i the world of Flintlocks the same way you did. I was wondering if should build from a kit or get a complete one. After researching, pondering and putting a bit of cash away, I found a great used one from a reputable source. I believe that receiving a complete ready to go was a good way to get my feet wet and gain some experience before I decided to build from a kit. I will advise you like the other gents here advised me......The Use of Flintlocks, Blackpowder and Accessories is Highly Addictive!

-GT

 

[Billnpatti]

Without knowing your skill level and patience level, it is difficult to make a recommendation. Of course, you can never go wrong buying a finished gun so long as you buy quality. If you can find a Pedersoli gun that you like, it will most likely be the least expensive of the better quality finished production guns. If you have the tools, skills and patience to build a kit gun, I'd recommend a TOW, TVM or a Jim Chambers kit and be sure to buy the 90% finished stock for your first build. Unless you are quite skilled and have all of the necessary tools, do not try to start your first build from a stock blank. Even a semi finished stock in which you have to inlet the lock and triggers is not a good first choice. Those tasks require a good bit of knowledge and care to do without messing things up.

I have hot blued only one barrel and it is not something that I recommend if you don't have a good set-up. It is extremely dangerous. I was lucky that I didn't kill myself or seriously injure or maim myself. Since that one single time, I have cold browned all of my barrels using Laurel Mountain Forge rust browning solution. That, too, takes patience and careful following of the instructions but I think it gives the best and most authentic brown. I fire blue my screw heads by carefully heating them in a torch flame until they just turn blue and then drop them into some oil to quench them. It is easy to do. Heat just the screw head and watch the color changes until it turns blue and then quench it.

You will likely have to file and polish any metal parts. Brass is not at all hard to do, it just requires patience to get it right. Steel parts will need to be browned just like the barrel.

For the wood finish, I much prefer to use a leather dye for the stain. It will be much darker than you want but all you have to do is use some steel wool to buff it back to the color that you like. For my finish, I much prefer True Oil or Lin-Speed oil. Both are applied in very thin coats with the finger tips, rubbed in very well and allowed to dry over night. Then you buff with 0000 steel wool before applying the next coat. It will take about 6 or 8 very thin coats to get the finish properly done. Follow the last coat with a good buffing with 0000 steel wool to give it that nice soft luster finish. There are other finishes that you can use but True Oil or Lin-Speed will give you the most durable finish.

Good luck in making your choices and if you choose to try building your own from a kit, take your time, do everything with precision and do not allow yourself to get in a hurry. Trying to rush will only end up in mistakes and some that cannot be corrected easily if at all. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Lot of excellent replies. Study them, you will learn. My thought is, first flinter or tenth is not the question that should be considered. What should be considered is your skill level with tools and building things. An artistic aptitude, or lack thereof is also a big factor. Building a traditional ml rifle or fowler is not a snap-snap, click-click thing. It takes time, skill and experience. I'll suggest you contact the various builders and ask about their 'in the white' offerings. If you get one, the process of taking it apart and seeing how it was put together, then sanding and finishing yourself will be a great learning experience. In addition, you will have the satisfaction of having done much of the work yourself. Good luck, keep us informed of your decision and progress.

 

[Mad Irish Jack]

My first ML flintlock was an Armsport, .54 caliber Hawken made in Italy. I had a 3 gun, winners choice ticket. Winner choice of three, the number above was choice of two left and the number below, ME, got what was left. It was a T/C Hawken by itself. When I went to pick it up, I saw the Armsport guns and kits on sale. The dealer, a HS classmate/teammate of mine, suggested the kit to allow me to learn the workings of the gun as well as the pride of finishing it. He threw in a CVA finishing and shooting kits and a can of FFg and FFFFg Goex, with the Armsport kit in place of the T/C. I took my time and followed instructions on the build. If I had a question pop up, I asked for info. There was no internet back in the 1970's
Some of the friends I shot with said I made a bad choice. They were wrong. I had an archery instructor who's Trade Comment was, "It isn't the weapon you use, It's how well you use the weapon you use!" Now that's similer to Matthew Quigley's statement that he never had much use for a hand gun, but he never said he didn't know how to use one. With the internet of today, getting help is easy. I still say theirs more pride and satisfaction in your own work than buying anothers' skill.

 

[robinsroost]

I started out with a percussion hawken style kit. I bought the kit after white tail season was over because, it was on sale, and I had a whole year to work on it. It will take you a lot longer to build your rifle than you think. My kit has a hardwood stock, inletted for the barrel and partially inletted for the action and the butt plate, trigger guard and ramrod pipes were sand castings. The barrel was in the white. It took me about 8 months to complete to where I was satisfied. I stained the stock with Min-wax red oak, and hand rubbed 30 coats of linseed oil, (never again). I cold blued the barrel and action first with 44-40 then with Ospho. I replaced the rear sight with a buckhorn one. Take your time and you will be OK. My first flintlock was a Lyman Great Planes rifle .54 caliber, followed by a Traditions Crockett in .32 caliber. I may have gotten lucky but bothy of my store bought rifles have excellent fit and finish and are good shooters. Keep yer powder dry......Robin :wink:

 

[nwtradegun]

I recommend a used gun first. check out track of the wolf or face book under flintlock trader. stay away from arms list unless it is a dealer.

 

[Golfswithwolves]

If you care about being historically correct, then everybody bought their guns back then. But if you have the skills required, then putting the gun together could be rewarding and economical.

 

[Black Hand]

Should I purchase a kit or a finished gun? I have zero experience in building guns or kits, or what have you. I am unsure how difficult it is to build one yourself, and/or what tools are needed.

If this is the case, you might wish to consider a finished gun or one in the "white" if final finishing is within your skills....

Where are you moving in MT?

You may wish to contact Matt at NorthStarWest for a trade-gun. He is located in Superior (Montana) and his product & customer service are excellent. I built (own) one of his Early English models and have built 12-15 various NSW trade-guns...

 

[larryp]

Howdy everyone. I am considering purchasing my first flintlock "something" soon here. I am moving to Montana in about 2 weeks,

Where you planning on moving to? I'm up in the NW corner of the state by Kalispell and Flathead Lake. I give another vote for North Star West. I was hunting over there over a year ago and stopped in and met Matt and he showed me around the shop and how he made the guns. Wound up ordering a nice lefty Chief's Grade trade gun.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I built my first gun, I had the barrel inletted, ramrod hole drilled and built from a plank with a pile of parts.

In my case I had never built a gun but had been a serious duck decoy carver and wood bow maker so I had the tools and most of the skills.

If you don't have a skill set in some kind of craft, I would suggest buying a finished gun.

After you watch every video and read every book on gun building, you can decide if building is something you can handle.

I have had a bunch of bow building students through my shop, all were excited about building bow, at first. As soon as they saw how much work is involved, most of them fall by the wayside.

 

[Pmringer]

I just got my first flinter. A 20 gauge rear sighted fowler. I had planned to build my first but decided the extra for a finished quality pice was worth it. From this I will have a much easier time with my build this summer (rifle). I'd get a nice used complete gun or find that deal on a new one. I found mine new with very high quality components for the price of most kits.

 

[garra]

I was faced with the same decision a few months back. I was getting close to ordering a kit, but I found a new rifle in the style and caliber I wanted on TOW. For about $400 more than the parts I got a finished flintlock. I had doubts on my ability/patience to do the wood, which isn't my strong suit, so buying finished is the best option.

 

[tenngun]

I've built kits and assembled parts since the 1970s. Still not real good at it. A gun like a North West gun is the " easiest" build. The butt plate trigger gaurs and pipes are the simplist installs. There is no end cap, or entry pipe. . The FDC or other French style fusils are more complex. Colonial fowlers tend to be complex having entry pipes and top of the butt plate and shaping the wood around the lock plate and tang can be touchy to get right. TOW NWG will take you about 100 hours more for French or colonial guns. So think hard so you get what you want. For your first build you may end up with a style you may not want in order to test your skill, or not get the look you want if your skill isn't up to the most complex parts. Keep in mind that if one man can do a job another man can do it.