knife building

[b737tvc]

Ok lil help here? My son was wanting to make a knife . I sent away to TOW for the brass rivets, we drilled the holes counter sunk, and ready to set rivets. First one went as planed, second and third bent or rounded over. Is there a prep to the rivets Im not doing or should know about.

Beaver T.

 

[LRB]

I wish I could help you, but in 45 years of making knives, I've never used cutlers rivets. Crockett should be able to help you though. Give him some time to reply.

 

[b737tvc]

Ok, thanks

B.T.

 

[Bo T]

I've used cutlers rivets on several knives and never had problems. I drill the pilot hole just a smidgen larger than outside female. If you got the longer rivets, the handle might not be wide enough for them. You can shorten the shank on the male part.

 

[b737tvc]

ya I did that how are you setting the rivets? Do you pound them together or use compression, like a vise or press.

 

[Bo T]

I tap them. I use a touch of epoxy inside the rivet and hole that might act as a bit of lubricant. You can also score the shank lengthwise to allow the air and excess epoxy to escape. You need to hit them square.

 

[necchi]

I don't care to use them anymore,, but when I did I used a vise to squeeze them slowly then finished the "set" with hammer,, I used small sockets from my 1/4 drive set to use as an anvil and peen for the hammer strike.
You gotta make sure they're the right length,, sometimes you have to cut one or both sections so they don't bottom out with each other before they set into the wood.

 

[b737tvc]

Thanks, Im wondering if perhaps he didn't check his male rivets length and bottomed out , thus bending . We will try again.

Beaver T.

 

[b737tvc]

Thanks for the info.

B.T.

 

[crockett]

On the cutler rivets, they started showing up more in the 1880's however Chuck (RIP) claimed he found a reference as early as 1850. On future knives use a steel pin of about 1/8- 3/32 diameter. These pins were 3 in a straight row. 4 in a side ways T, or 5 in an H. If you are using a blank blade with 3 pre-drilled holes- that's ok just use the pins.
You need a step drill on the cutler rivet to seat the surface of the rivet flush with the scale/handle. In other words there is a hole all the way through but then a counter sunk shelf for the thickness of the rivet head. Knife making supplies sell these drill bits.
The length on the rivets must be trimmed at times to match the thickness of the handle, I'd say 1/4" of the male into the female ought to hold fine. Actually with 3 rivets only 1/8" would work. I always use clear epoxy glue as well just to seal the area to keep water out.
Some knives with the 5 pins actually had 4 iron/steel pins at the corners and a brass bolt/screw in the middle. The ends of this brass bolt/screw were sawn off the the ends filed flush to the scale so it looks like a brass pin but it was threaded- held the scales better.

 

[satx78247]

That's WHY I like pins made of copper or brass wire/welding rod, rather than rivets.

yours, satx

 

[colmoultrie]

It depends on the era and area for your knife. Copper or brass is probably correct for the early Industrial Revolution - I don't know much about Southwest styles - but from what I understand, eighteenth century knives in the Northeast and Great Lakes almost always used iron pins. I believe that carried over until the Embargo Act of 1808, or even until the War of 1812, when the US began to industrialize.

 

[b737tvc]

Thanks guys for all the info, this isn't a period correct knife. He just wanted to make a knife for deer hunting. But you guys brought up a lot of good points. We did use a counter sink drill made for the rivets, I think the problem is the rivets to long. We will drill out the rivets and shorten the new ones.

In re gards to pins, how are they applied? I m assuming you drill and peen over on both ends then file smooth ?

This has been very helpful thanks again.

B.T.

 

[b737tvc]

Ok re read, Ill try screw on my next patch knife.


B.T

 

[b737tvc]

Thanks for the good info.

B.T

 

[b737tvc]

So if you use a welding rod you peen it over then?

B.T

 

[crockett]

I think historically the pins may have been peen hammered but I'm not sure. The biggest problem is getting all the holes or locations lined up. I just epoxy glue them in place. If you start hammering you'll dent and bang up the scales.
Iron seems to be the only thing I've run across. You could use long threaded bolts and then file the ends flush however the bolts sometimes aren't perfectly round due to the threads. I'd just epoxy glue them.

 

[satx78247]

Inasmuch as the early New Spain, colonial Texas/SW area, early Mexico, TX Revolution & the era up to & through TWBTS is my main interest, I find copper & brass pins perfectly acceptable.
(Blades in museums in Texas/Mexico have iron/brass/copper as fittings.)

Both copper & brass are easily converted to suitable pins by annealing in a flame & by 1800 knives in quantity were being imported into New Spain from Europe, imported to New Spain/early Texas from Louisiana/Arkansas & locally made in early Mexico, Texas & most of the rest of the SW. - By 1830, there were at least two "knife factories" in Texas. = One at Schmidt's Dock/Harrisburg & the other at Gonzales.
(I would presume that the same is true about early California, but I know little of that State's early history.)

yours, satx

 

[necchi]

So if you use a welding rod you peen it over then?

Yeah, but it doesn't take much. Peen just a little before finishing the wood and sand the pins down with the wood for final finish.
There are two words to help hold the wood scabs on a knife hilt.
"E"-"poxy"

 

[satx78247]

YEP. After annealing the brass/copper in a flame, so that it's soft.
(Solid copper wire in larger gauges works well & after it's installed it looks quite well, too.)

Fwiw, most of the early Texas-made knives have wooden handles/scales of bois d'arc, walnut, mesquite, etc.
(Smiths mostly used what was locally available, including bone, horn, antler, etc. OR "recycled" other materials into knife components.)

1LT James Butler Bonham had (during his service at Fortress La Bahia) a "large fighting knife" made at Schmidt's Dock (later: Harrisburg/Houston), which reportedly had a handle made of melted "Spanish silver coins".
(The location of 1LT Bonham's knife is currently unknown.)
and
"The Notorious Blade" of Robert S. Potter (former President of The Caddoan Republic & Secretary of the Texas Navy), which he used on the steps of the new Texas Capitol to gut a man, who had "- - - made immoral advances to & fondled the bosom of" Mrs. Harriet Anne Potter, was "ornamented with fine gold, silver & precious stones".
(Secretary Potter's knife is currently in the private collection of a physician in Smith County, TX.)

yours, satx