I was wanting to order a gun from TVM and I have the option of a L/R or siler lock could someone tell me which would be better and why? I have read that the L/R has a water proof pan and a roller frizzen and you can switch from perc. to flint if the rifle is setup that way.Are the L/R locks faster than the siler? Also are the colerain barrels accurate I was wanting to go with the swamped 38" barrel.And last what is a good caliber I can not decide if I want 50 or the 54 most of my shoots here in illinois will be from point blank to 60 yrds. but will have the chance at 100 if I hunt one of my fields now with open sights my limets will be more of the 10-50 yrd shoots but want to know the gun will harvest a deer out there at longer ranges if I put the ball where it belongs. And does the 50 or 54 shoot any flatter then the other? Thanks bowfish
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L&R OR SILER LOCK ?
- Thread starter bowfish
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Lots of questions and all I can give is my opnions but I'll try to take them in order:
Best lock? Both are good. The Siler is a little older design and perhaps a little more rugged. There are several good companys who build Siler locks. I'm not sure if Syler is building his own any more or not.
The L&R are mechanically very similar to the fine English locks of the period. In addition to the roller frizzen they use a small link between the mainspring and the tumbler. I haven't had a problem with this on the several L&R locks I own, but it does look rather fragile.
Colerain builds some of the best barrels you can buy.
The .54 packs more knock down power and maintains its velocity better than the .50 at long ranges. The .54s better knock down is because it is a 239 grain ball instead of the .50 calibers 180 grain ball and it pokes a .040 larger hole.
Maintaining velocity is a function of Ballistic Coefficient which deals with shape and weight. As the shape is the same for either round ball one needs to look at the weight.
As the diameter of the ball goes up its area increases by a function of Pi X Radius squared. The weight goes up as a function of the cube of the radius.
In other words, a little increase in diameter doesn't make a big increase the area of the hole in the wind the ball must travel thru but that little increase in diameter increases the balls weight quite a bit.
At the ranges your talking about, either caliber will work well on a deer.
This caliber question for game like deer is more of an academic excercise than a real issue. If we were talking about Elk I would definatly say use the .54.
Another thing about the .54 and .50 you didn't ask about is the weight of the barrel. Be sure and ask about this as you may be able to get the .50 in a lighter weight barrel if that is an issue with you.
Best lock? Both are good. The Siler is a little older design and perhaps a little more rugged. There are several good companys who build Siler locks. I'm not sure if Syler is building his own any more or not.
The L&R are mechanically very similar to the fine English locks of the period. In addition to the roller frizzen they use a small link between the mainspring and the tumbler. I haven't had a problem with this on the several L&R locks I own, but it does look rather fragile.
Colerain builds some of the best barrels you can buy.
The .54 packs more knock down power and maintains its velocity better than the .50 at long ranges. The .54s better knock down is because it is a 239 grain ball instead of the .50 calibers 180 grain ball and it pokes a .040 larger hole.
Maintaining velocity is a function of Ballistic Coefficient which deals with shape and weight. As the shape is the same for either round ball one needs to look at the weight.
As the diameter of the ball goes up its area increases by a function of Pi X Radius squared. The weight goes up as a function of the cube of the radius.
In other words, a little increase in diameter doesn't make a big increase the area of the hole in the wind the ball must travel thru but that little increase in diameter increases the balls weight quite a bit.
At the ranges your talking about, either caliber will work well on a deer.
This caliber question for game like deer is more of an academic excercise than a real issue. If we were talking about Elk I would definatly say use the .54.
Another thing about the .54 and .50 you didn't ask about is the weight of the barrel. Be sure and ask about this as you may be able to get the .50 in a lighter weight barrel if that is an issue with you.
TwoShadows
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Win/win situation Bowfish. I have both, enjoy both and can find no fault with either lock. I'm not sure how much advantage a waterproof pan is....I use a "cows knee" on mine in nasty weather, so that point is moot with me. I am currently having real fine luck with another Siler. Unmodified they switch from gun to gun. Conversion to persuckshun(percusion) is not an option with me. Siler can be just as interchangeable as L&R as far as i know...I converted the other way(persuckshun to Flint) on a rifle a couple years ago with no difficulty.
Colerain barrels work fine for me too. Colerain and Getz use the same steel nowadays. Green Mountain and Rice are a tad harder. There are a number of good barrel makers out there now...not at all like 35 years ago when the choice was Douglas or Bill Large or Numrich. My current new shooter is a 44 inch Colerain .54 caliber. Missed 2 gongs in the whole match today at the club..it were enough to take 1st place...but I haven't really finished sighting it in. One miss was at a gong at 80+ yards.....the other miss was at a piece of chain at 25 yards. 18 shots without wiping....same flint all the way through...no missfires on the Colerain/Siler combo. Wonder wad soaked patches in a round bottom rifled barrel. Thickest ox-yoke patches and .530 swaged balls and 62 grains of Goex 3f.
I Like .54 as an all around caliber....for many reasons...bigger ball for my old hands....more weight for carrying the ball. Bigger wound channel. I currently own from .40 to .62 caliber....and like something about them all...therefore I am probably not your best advisor. Weigh it all carefully, and decide for yourself. E-mail me for any further info I could provide or for suppliers of any of the parts.
Colerain barrels work fine for me too. Colerain and Getz use the same steel nowadays. Green Mountain and Rice are a tad harder. There are a number of good barrel makers out there now...not at all like 35 years ago when the choice was Douglas or Bill Large or Numrich. My current new shooter is a 44 inch Colerain .54 caliber. Missed 2 gongs in the whole match today at the club..it were enough to take 1st place...but I haven't really finished sighting it in. One miss was at a gong at 80+ yards.....the other miss was at a piece of chain at 25 yards. 18 shots without wiping....same flint all the way through...no missfires on the Colerain/Siler combo. Wonder wad soaked patches in a round bottom rifled barrel. Thickest ox-yoke patches and .530 swaged balls and 62 grains of Goex 3f.
I Like .54 as an all around caliber....for many reasons...bigger ball for my old hands....more weight for carrying the ball. Bigger wound channel. I currently own from .40 to .62 caliber....and like something about them all...therefore I am probably not your best advisor. Weigh it all carefully, and decide for yourself. E-mail me for any further info I could provide or for suppliers of any of the parts.
TwoShadows
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Gosh Zonie...great minds and all that stuff etc.
I do know that my Friend Tip showed me a new weight barrel the other day from Colerain...."O" weight is a bit lighter than the "C" weight I purchased. It really felt nice....and light. My only concern was heat distortion from the thinner barrel in a multishot(10 or more)match on a hot day.
I would have echoed your thoughts on all them ballistical coefficients and stuff, but them grammatical ejaculations was hurting my headbone and I was afeered to ask for re-itteration...man, that stuff is copious to me!
I do know that my Friend Tip showed me a new weight barrel the other day from Colerain...."O" weight is a bit lighter than the "C" weight I purchased. It really felt nice....and light. My only concern was heat distortion from the thinner barrel in a multishot(10 or more)match on a hot day.
I would have echoed your thoughts on all them ballistical coefficients and stuff, but them grammatical ejaculations was hurting my headbone and I was afeered to ask for re-itteration...man, that stuff is copious to me!
I have had good results with both brands, one thing to consider is which type of gun you are getting as not all guns are proper with a Siler if this is a factor to you, you may want to do some homework, do not rely on the builder for this info, they will put a Siler on a Tulle and call it PC if they can make a sale.
Well TwoShadows, we wouldn't want to get copious right here on the forum in front of God and Everyone. We haven't even been to SanFrancisco.
Bowfish: A word about interchangable locks. The Silers will interchange just as easily as the L&Rs.
I've built 2 "convertable" guns, one with Silers and one with L&R locks. Both were kind of a pain to get the outside of the lock plate and the sear releases exactly the same. (I inlet the lockplates so there is no gap between the plate and the wood so work has to be done in this area and the sear arms never seem to be the same without some adjustment.)
The thing you should be aware of is IF you want to have a Convertable it has to be built FIRST for the Precussion lock.
The lock and hammer dictate where the drum and nipple is and this location is critical for a proper hammer/nipple alignment.
Within reason, the Flintlock doesn't care where the flashhole is as long as it's "close" to the proper location.
The moral of the story is if you have it built as a Flintlock, it can be a real PITA to try to convert it to precussion. If it's built as a precussion it is just a moderate amount of work to make it a flintlock.
I also have heard people say changing them back and forth will wear them out. These people IMO have never built a gun. If they had they would understand that just in the course of building a gun these parts get removed and installed many times. Yes, if someone "overtightens" the drum that can cause damage but when the drum is tightened like it should be it can be replaced many times without causing harm.
Bowfish: A word about interchangable locks. The Silers will interchange just as easily as the L&Rs.
I've built 2 "convertable" guns, one with Silers and one with L&R locks. Both were kind of a pain to get the outside of the lock plate and the sear releases exactly the same. (I inlet the lockplates so there is no gap between the plate and the wood so work has to be done in this area and the sear arms never seem to be the same without some adjustment.)
The thing you should be aware of is IF you want to have a Convertable it has to be built FIRST for the Precussion lock.
The lock and hammer dictate where the drum and nipple is and this location is critical for a proper hammer/nipple alignment.
Within reason, the Flintlock doesn't care where the flashhole is as long as it's "close" to the proper location.
The moral of the story is if you have it built as a Flintlock, it can be a real PITA to try to convert it to precussion. If it's built as a precussion it is just a moderate amount of work to make it a flintlock.
I also have heard people say changing them back and forth will wear them out. These people IMO have never built a gun. If they had they would understand that just in the course of building a gun these parts get removed and installed many times. Yes, if someone "overtightens" the drum that can cause damage but when the drum is tightened like it should be it can be replaced many times without causing harm.
There is no doubt in my mined that I would choose the Siler. And I would want a Siler from Jim Chambers Flintlocks if possible. (Not all locksmiths are created equal & neither is their work)
If you gave me a L&R I would hand it back to you & smile & tell you "No Thanks". After tha last go-around they gave me & 4 other people, I don't every want another one. When I have a problem with a lock I want it Fixed, not a answer like "9 shots out of a flint is Normmal use" answer that L&R gave me. Never again.
Now I am not saying the don't make a good lock, as they do & they have for years. But their customer service is useless, IMHO>. Your mileage may vary.
As for the Silers, they are owwned by Jim Chambers Flintlcock & he also makes a modified Siler & it is superb also. Very hard hitting lock & a shower of sparks. I prefer to buy them all from him. Just as cheap & you KNOW he had them built & they are correct. Other places buy the kits & have their locksmiths build them, some good & some are ?
As for the Colerain barrels, I have used lots of them & have never had a problem with any of them. Accurate ? well, I actually think all of them are more accurate than you can hold them. But I know the Colerains have served me well, never had a problem with accuracy with any of them, none that I have sold have had a problem either. The Getz & Rice are a more polished barrel in appearance, but again I say they will all shoot better than you can hold them.
I have built several of the 38" "C" swampeed Colerains & they were very accurate & in a .54 cal they are quite light & a wonderful RB caliber for deer & my preferred choice in deer hunting.
For a trigger I suggest a R.E.Davis trigger.
If you gave me a L&R I would hand it back to you & smile & tell you "No Thanks". After tha last go-around they gave me & 4 other people, I don't every want another one. When I have a problem with a lock I want it Fixed, not a answer like "9 shots out of a flint is Normmal use" answer that L&R gave me. Never again.
Now I am not saying the don't make a good lock, as they do & they have for years. But their customer service is useless, IMHO>. Your mileage may vary.
As for the Silers, they are owwned by Jim Chambers Flintlcock & he also makes a modified Siler & it is superb also. Very hard hitting lock & a shower of sparks. I prefer to buy them all from him. Just as cheap & you KNOW he had them built & they are correct. Other places buy the kits & have their locksmiths build them, some good & some are ?
As for the Colerain barrels, I have used lots of them & have never had a problem with any of them. Accurate ? well, I actually think all of them are more accurate than you can hold them. But I know the Colerains have served me well, never had a problem with accuracy with any of them, none that I have sold have had a problem either. The Getz & Rice are a more polished barrel in appearance, but again I say they will all shoot better than you can hold them.
I have built several of the 38" "C" swampeed Colerains & they were very accurate & in a .54 cal they are quite light & a wonderful RB caliber for deer & my preferred choice in deer hunting.
For a trigger I suggest a R.E.Davis trigger.
I have a siler on my fowler that I just got used the guy who built her told me he bought this lock from Mr. Siler himself in 1970 and it still works great to me. Now whos to say that all the parts have not been replaced, but it throws a good spark.The reason I wanted the swamped barrel was the weight factor Iam 5'10" and 155 lbs and wanted a gun I could hold well for off hand shots but not to light for barrel whip. The total gun length should be 53 1/2 inches long but not for sure of the total weight. The gun Iwant to order fromTVM is the early virginia model.Iworked every sat. and sunday for three months to be able to buy this gun and it will be the last one I have made because I will build the next one...........
I'll go along with Birddog on the Siler, I have 5 rifles with Silers and they are all excellent. I had a rifle from TVM with a L&R roundfaced lock, it would not spark, nothing , not one little spark did it ever make. Traded it back to them for another with a Siler, no problems since.
That probably was a rare case but was enough for me not to want another L&R.
That probably was a rare case but was enough for me not to want another L&R.
I also would go with the Siler.
Have you checked with TVM about delivery. I talked to them a couple of months ago and they were running about a year. They could possibly have one in stock already built a phone call or email will tell.
If you have to wait for a year on your new TVM why not go ahead and build one now? You will probably save some money and have your new gun a whole lot sooner.
Have you checked with TVM about delivery. I talked to them a couple of months ago and they were running about a year. They could possibly have one in stock already built a phone call or email will tell.
If you have to wait for a year on your new TVM why not go ahead and build one now? You will probably save some money and have your new gun a whole lot sooner.
I would suggest looking at some original early southern guns and I think as a rule the Siler type Germanic lock ( or L&R germanic) would not be the best choice that would be supported by the extant originals. But then I somehow get the impression that history is not an important issue here.
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That's interesting. I just bought the Dickert lock from Track, and with normal 3/4" English flints, it's ingition is much faster than the Siler it replaced. By much faster, I mean it's ignition is almost percussion-like. Never have I fired a flinter that's that fast, even a custom one that was portraited as being as fast as percussion. My .45's incredible now & I thought the Siler was good - not even close to the Dickert - L&R, I think.
Daryl
CDN
Daryl
CDN
Guest
If we are talking EARLY VIRGINIA then the Siler germantic type would be appropriate. Most of the VA smiths migrated down from PA in the beginning, following the Shenandoa Vally from north to south. The further north the more germantic, and earlier the style. Also, the further south and farther from the coast, the more prevelant iron mountings became. Check out this months Muzzle Blasts. Gusler has a good article on this subject.
Nearly all of the early 1740-1760 Southern locks Schumway shows are off an English type, and the Siler type would be of a 1770 or later anyway. Generaly most makers put an English influence in the southern guns though many German builders were in the area, an early German lock would be in order not a Siler on a German infuenced gun, and I doubt that even the House boys when pinned in a corner will make any claims about iron on southern guns in the 1770's or before, as for Gusler I think he believes that the ten commandments came from Virginia (VBG) Take a close look at the locks from any guns considered to be from the 1750-1760's and the Siler is probably not the best choice, I think Bud fashioned it after a 1770 period Penn lock.The best thing to do is look to the originals.. Schumway, Kindig, Johnson,Whiskers, not to what anyone makes today or claims is correct and the picture becomes pretty clear on many issues that folks like to dispute. As for the TVM "Virginia" I have not held one but have a hard time seeing what makes it a "Virginia" by the pics in the catalog... but then they use a Siler on the Tulle also the last time I looked????????
We will not allow you to buy a L & R lock. Please, call Jim Chambers/Silar for your needs. I was given this advice, and did not follow it..and now am suffering the result. We all know what is best for you, and do not want you to walk down the dark path of buying L&R junk..where misery, suffering , regret await.
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I used an L&R classic on the last rifle I completed, and would have to say it is an excellant lock. Very fast with excellant sparks, however I did have to make a new detent for it because the one in it was to short to do its job. I normally avoid L&R's, but my customer had purchased a preinletted stock for the "classic" lock. This lock works great, but I would rather use Chambers when ever possible.
PowderFlask2
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My 2bits
take a look at Jim Chambers web site
Jim bought the siler lock company and has since made several changes to them. the standard "siler" lock has a different cock angle etc. than the older ones and will spark better etc. than the old silers
also he shows several different styles and more importantly gives dates for when that particular lock style would have been prevalent
I love my chambers locks and have had good luck with the old silers and even better luck with them since Jim bought them. I will shoot against a percussion gun any time
I have also had some cheap locks and there is no bigger frustration than a lock that goes through flints like water and won't go off half the time
that being said I have no experience with L&R locks and will defer to those who have, but I'll stick with what works for me
take a look at Jim Chambers web site
Jim bought the siler lock company and has since made several changes to them. the standard "siler" lock has a different cock angle etc. than the older ones and will spark better etc. than the old silers
also he shows several different styles and more importantly gives dates for when that particular lock style would have been prevalent
I love my chambers locks and have had good luck with the old silers and even better luck with them since Jim bought them. I will shoot against a percussion gun any time
I have also had some cheap locks and there is no bigger frustration than a lock that goes through flints like water and won't go off half the time
that being said I have no experience with L&R locks and will defer to those who have, but I'll stick with what works for me
Just want to say thank you to all who gave the great info.And a thank you to two shadows, Tip is puttting together a light weight gun in kit form for me so I can build it for my wife.But a gun from TVM has been ordered with a siler lock and it will be flint only. I was worried about damp weather when hunting and thought I could switch it back over to perc. But I will learn how to care for and shoot the flint. Matt thought the gun (early virginia)with 38" swamped barrel would be around 7 1/2 to 8 pounds at 53 1/2 inches long, all steel hardwear and barrel will be antiqued even though Iam haveing this built for hunting I went for the top end stock.Matt gave me a delivery date in oct of this year who knows when it will get here? Sorry if the gun is not built P/C but there are no muzzleloader gatherings around me that I know of ,but would realy like to go to some because Iam sure I would be hooked.
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