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L&R OR SILER LOCK ?
- Thread starter bowfish
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PowderFlask2
32 Cal.
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Bowfish
I assume from your e-mail address that you are from the Bushnell Il area?
The absolutely greatest place in Illinois to do muzzleloading/reenacting is Fort De Chartres in Southern Illinois. They have some kind of event every month.
This is a Fort that dates from the French colonial era and if you were alive in Illinois country in the early 1700's you were either an Indian or you were French.
Great place with the June Rendezvous being a huge event that draws people from all over the country
Call the site for more info at 618-284-7230 or e-mail them @ [email protected]
My 2bits
I assume from your e-mail address that you are from the Bushnell Il area?
The absolutely greatest place in Illinois to do muzzleloading/reenacting is Fort De Chartres in Southern Illinois. They have some kind of event every month.
This is a Fort that dates from the French colonial era and if you were alive in Illinois country in the early 1700's you were either an Indian or you were French.
Great place with the June Rendezvous being a huge event that draws people from all over the country
Call the site for more info at 618-284-7230 or e-mail them @ [email protected]
My 2bits
Need specifics. I just sent a deposit to have a J.Rupp style Lehigh school rifle made and the gunsmith suggests a Christian Springs lock, which I believe is L&R. I still have time to request different if I choose. Track Of The Wolf seems to like them, too. Whazzup with yours - could it just be a singular lemon? Was it tuned by your gunsmith? What specifically is the problem(s).
I am not concerned with the lock being the correct one on my generic kentuckys or fusils. I have 6 Chambers locks, all are excellent & fast right out of the box, I just polished up the innards some. The sound when they click up tells a lot.
I have 3 L&R locks, 2 are junk, one is just acceptable. Bought before I knew better. The sear screw hole is not perpendicular, neither is the screw hole for the frizzen or bridle. How do you fix this problem? You can't. They eat flints. The trigger feel on the tumbler like dragging thru sand.
Both Chambers and L&R use assemblers, paid by piecework. They are all not the same. Chambers has much higher quality control, in my opinion, and from the posts on this board, a lot of others feel the same. Apparently, L&R will sell a lock just slapped together by anyone. A few got lucky and got a decent L&R, all who got a Chambers are much pleased. Why take a chance.
Don, from Iowa
I have 3 L&R locks, 2 are junk, one is just acceptable. Bought before I knew better. The sear screw hole is not perpendicular, neither is the screw hole for the frizzen or bridle. How do you fix this problem? You can't. They eat flints. The trigger feel on the tumbler like dragging thru sand.
Both Chambers and L&R use assemblers, paid by piecework. They are all not the same. Chambers has much higher quality control, in my opinion, and from the posts on this board, a lot of others feel the same. Apparently, L&R will sell a lock just slapped together by anyone. A few got lucky and got a decent L&R, all who got a Chambers are much pleased. Why take a chance.
Don, from Iowa
Stumpkiller, I have two Queen Anns that are fine locks, some like the L&R some don't, Chambers locksare a very good product. I did not see a "Christian Springs" lock at the L&R website it may be by Davis? I was interested as to what a "Christian Springs' lock looked like, as early as the mid 1750's most locks and barrels used in the Christian Springs were imported German or English as were the barrels. the same applied all over the colonies...but then as being correct seems of little value around here you might consider a modified '98 Mauser action, very strong and reliable and can be used in a variety of calibers.. btw I have read of some connection with the Lehigh guns and the earlier guns of Christian Springs, I think the only signed Rupp gun (Kindig pg 176) is thought to be pre-rev war with an early roman nose style stock and other early features, There is no written connection of Rupp with Christian Springs so I am curious as to the recomendation of a "special" lock for one of his guns, let me know if you hear of something that puts this in perspective.
KA ZING! Check out LOCK-CS at the Track of the Wolf. It is Chambers' L-5 Early Germanic, which the Chambers website describes as a "transitional" with ties to the Moravians at Christian Springs.
I had forgotten about that lock, but I am not so sure it would be a better choice for the Rupp gun which was probably made in the 1770's, it seems a bit early for the Lehigh school to me even the "early" Lehigh, check out the Lehigh guns in RCA 1, it is hard to tell on the Rupp gun in Kindig but it does not seem to have that lockplate shape, Schumway suggests that the guns of Lehigh were much like the guns of Chritian Springs in the 1760's then an evolution occured in the 1770's -1780's that resulted in the radical shaped stock, the Rupp gun is probably an early stage of this change and would likely have had a lock more like the 1770's type than the 1750's... just some thoughts, you might want to read a bit on this and see what you come up with.
I'm having John Donelson build this rifle, and he works over the lockplate to make a faux J.Rupp (I just checked with him - it's the Chambers L-5 [whew!]- which has a huge backlog of orders). I'm having him copy Kindig #62 (that same p. 176 you noted) with a few variations (.54 cal, 44" bbl, iron buttplate, thimbles, guard). The inspiration will be all from that Rupp. That rifle has always made my socks roll up and down. We're scaling it up a bit for me; I'm 6'3". The Lehigh school is unique, but Christian Springs was only 20 miles away from town of Macungie, where the elder J.Rupp lived (he had a nephew, also J. Rupp, who was a gunsmith) and his older brother Herman Rupp - also a blacksmith and gunsmith according to the tax roles. The Moravians of Bethlemhem and Christian Springs were producing locks from 1740's to 1760's, and then the Molls, Nieharts and Rupps appear. J. Rupp probably made more than two guns, so I have taken the liberty of assuming his early work borrowed on the Christian Springs influence, and possibly even materials, before he had developed his unique style. Moll and Rupp may have apprentaced there, or one did and passed it on to the other. (I have seen one account of Rupp apprentacing to Moll, and another claims Moll apprentaced to Rupp?) This will be the imaginary, but possible, early J. Rupp piece (but with the signature J. Donelson on the barrel). I even talked John into retaining the Rupp hump under the bow extension - he preferred the Moll where it blends into the trigger bow better.
Guest
If there is only one sighned work of an artist how do we know who influnced him or who he influnced. In the same light, how do we know that any of the guns in the "fairy tale books" are origional? And how may we trust the word of "experts" who label a whole school of gunmaking based on one example or one fragment thereof.
Today customers furnish their own parts on a regular basis. I have documentation of people in the 1700 & 1800s carrying around gun parts for months looking for a smith to build a rifle around the parts they already had. That would mess up anyones school of style.
Right TG, we don't care about syle, because it didn't exist then and it shouldn't exist now. Dang if I would pay good money to a smith that wouldn't build me exactly what I wanted, in 1704 or 2004, even if it wasn't what he usually did! I've read the invoices of smiths that actually sighned more than one gun. They built the customer what he wanted, often from assorted parts he already had.
I think everyone here realizes that the art guns of the picture books were owned by the rich of the country, and most of them were unfired, hence their survival. A primary rule of museum conservation is that only the finest and fanciest survives intact, not the normal items of daily use.
I'll put my Dickert Lock copy on a Northampton stock (coppied from another fragment), slap a .62 barrel 26 inches long on it and carry it if thats what I want to pay for! I have several "parts guns" that I slaped together as coppies of of the very few origional every day guns that have survived. Almost all of the origionals look like manure and show a mixture of assorted parts and styles. That was the norm then. If we want to copy art guns, fine. If we want to copy real working guns we shouldn't worry about some biggoted has-been drip under preasure passing judgement on our choice.
Today customers furnish their own parts on a regular basis. I have documentation of people in the 1700 & 1800s carrying around gun parts for months looking for a smith to build a rifle around the parts they already had. That would mess up anyones school of style.
Right TG, we don't care about syle, because it didn't exist then and it shouldn't exist now. Dang if I would pay good money to a smith that wouldn't build me exactly what I wanted, in 1704 or 2004, even if it wasn't what he usually did! I've read the invoices of smiths that actually sighned more than one gun. They built the customer what he wanted, often from assorted parts he already had.
I think everyone here realizes that the art guns of the picture books were owned by the rich of the country, and most of them were unfired, hence their survival. A primary rule of museum conservation is that only the finest and fanciest survives intact, not the normal items of daily use.
I'll put my Dickert Lock copy on a Northampton stock (coppied from another fragment), slap a .62 barrel 26 inches long on it and carry it if thats what I want to pay for! I have several "parts guns" that I slaped together as coppies of of the very few origional every day guns that have survived. Almost all of the origionals look like manure and show a mixture of assorted parts and styles. That was the norm then. If we want to copy art guns, fine. If we want to copy real working guns we shouldn't worry about some biggoted has-been drip under preasure passing judgement on our choice.
Guest
Oh yes, 98 Mauser actions look really nice if you use a straight pull manlicher stye stock of dark walnut and mount steel Hawkin rifle hardware on them. Espically nice with the curled style trigger guard. I now might try one with "early Lancaster" hardware. I hadn't considered that before.
This is a good discussion, but we're getting off the L&R vs. Siler topic. Lets move it to "Pennsylvania Gunsmiths and Guns."
Sounds like a nice gun Stumpkiller, I have thought of useing iron on an early gun but have not been able to find any thing to support this so I stick to brass or recycled iron Euro-furniture, and as for Ghost I think you are so far out in left field that you would have a hard time swallowing peanuts at that altitude, you really should stop by the Longrifles forums and share your wealth of knowledge with those poor misguided souls who have studied these guns for most of their lives, as for this forum I think I am done trying to add any imput from a historical standpoint it is obviously a waste of time.
Ghost: Interesting points you made but taking your comment:"... I have documentation of people in the 1700 & 1800s carrying around gun parts for months looking for a smith to build a rifle around the parts they already had. That would mess up anyones school of style."
and coupling it to another comment by you:
"...Dang if I would pay good money to a smith that wouldn't build me exactly what I wanted, in 1704 or 2004, even if it wasn't what he usually did!" makes me wonder if the Masters ( hopefully I can refer to them as that), did exactly that.
That is to say, perhaps the refusal of the Masters to depart from what they felt was the "right" way to design and build a gun explains why the persons you first refered to were carrying around their spare parts looking for a smith to build their rifle.
Food for thought don't you think?
As for the "fairy tale books" and the guns they show and speak of, we each may believe what we wish to believe.
I for one fail to understand the logic of questioning the guns they show. Perhaps I have too much faith in men who worked their lives to understand and classify what they saw. Of the ones I have read, there is no doubt in my mind that their work was a work of love and fascination and not one for personal gain.
Some of the conclusions they jumped to are of course questionable, but most of their conclusions were based not only on the guns they show in their books but on many other guns they personally saw but didn't show in their books.
As for those who question the authenticity of the guns I build, I feel this is their right however I am also quick to point out that I did not "copy" an existing gun. I used an existing gun or School for inspiration and guidance.
and coupling it to another comment by you:
"...Dang if I would pay good money to a smith that wouldn't build me exactly what I wanted, in 1704 or 2004, even if it wasn't what he usually did!" makes me wonder if the Masters ( hopefully I can refer to them as that), did exactly that.
That is to say, perhaps the refusal of the Masters to depart from what they felt was the "right" way to design and build a gun explains why the persons you first refered to were carrying around their spare parts looking for a smith to build their rifle.
Food for thought don't you think?
As for the "fairy tale books" and the guns they show and speak of, we each may believe what we wish to believe.
I for one fail to understand the logic of questioning the guns they show. Perhaps I have too much faith in men who worked their lives to understand and classify what they saw. Of the ones I have read, there is no doubt in my mind that their work was a work of love and fascination and not one for personal gain.
Some of the conclusions they jumped to are of course questionable, but most of their conclusions were based not only on the guns they show in their books but on many other guns they personally saw but didn't show in their books.
As for those who question the authenticity of the guns I build, I feel this is their right however I am also quick to point out that I did not "copy" an existing gun. I used an existing gun or School for inspiration and guidance.
Stumpkiller: You can get the Chambers L-5 lock from Tip Curtis Frontier Shop.(615) 654-4445 I just bought one from Tuesday & it was in stock. You will pay ? $10. more as he of course gets them from Jim Chambers but Tip does have them in stock. He is quite an extensive inventory.
Thanks for the tip. My smith came up with one yesterday - didn't say where. In my checking to see who actually made the lock he was describing as a "Christian Springs" I found that it was what Track of the Wolf carries as "LOCK-CS" (Chambers' "Early Germanic") and according to them Chambers has a 600 lock backlog!
That is correct. From what I understand Tracks ordered 1000 locks from Jim & when I called they said it would be 4 ot 6 weeks for them to build me the 2 locks I needed, so I got them from Tip as I can't wait that long on locks or on barrels.
When a feller orders a rifle from me & I give him a date, I do my best to stay on schedule & deliver when promised. So I order all my rifle parts one or two rifles ahead so when I get ready to start on it I have all the parts here & ready to go.
When a feller orders a rifle from me & I give him a date, I do my best to stay on schedule & deliver when promised. So I order all my rifle parts one or two rifles ahead so when I get ready to start on it I have all the parts here & ready to go.
The fellows like "dear GeorgeS, will cal it anything BUT a KY! My best rifle had a Large barrel and one of "bud's" Siler locks. The triggers were handmade by Roller. 50 shots with a single flint were possible. Large's barrel, made on surplus machinery had a .308 bore but was 40-some inches long. I got to hunting squirrels with less than 10 grains of powder. Back then Bud would repair his locks FREE! As you can see my knowledge is dated and I am spoiled to the fine hand workmanship of the "old days". :imo:
One thing to remember on the locks from what I was last told by 3 makers; (this may have changed by now but this was the last time I conversed with them)
Chambers Locks ----- Lifetime warranty on parts
L & R Lock --------- 6 mo warranty on parts
Davis Lock --------- 6 mo warranty on parts
This means that in my case, if a rifle is waiting to be built for 6 mo to a year & when I get to it, the lock is out of warranty if it is a L&R or a Davis.....
Now I know all of the major lock makers have made good locks for years, but having some problems with other brands in the past few years has steered to to use Chambers locks if at all possible.....
I have had only 1 of over 20 some Chambers locks fail. It failed because "I" broke it ! I got in a hurry removing the cock & broke the screw hole in the tumbler. I called Jim & told him that the hole broke & he proceeded to tell me HOW I broke it (and he was correct :redface: ) and then laughed & said he would mail me a new one No Charge... To me, that is a man that knows how to run a business & wants to keep my business, and he has done so...
So, if I were you I would stay with the Chambers locks & the lifetime warranty. Jim Chambers knows what he is doing, he has done it for 35+ ? years & has been most successful in building them. He WILL back his product & WILL replace a part IF it breaks.
Chambers Locks ----- Lifetime warranty on parts
L & R Lock --------- 6 mo warranty on parts
Davis Lock --------- 6 mo warranty on parts
This means that in my case, if a rifle is waiting to be built for 6 mo to a year & when I get to it, the lock is out of warranty if it is a L&R or a Davis.....
Now I know all of the major lock makers have made good locks for years, but having some problems with other brands in the past few years has steered to to use Chambers locks if at all possible.....
I have had only 1 of over 20 some Chambers locks fail. It failed because "I" broke it ! I got in a hurry removing the cock & broke the screw hole in the tumbler. I called Jim & told him that the hole broke & he proceeded to tell me HOW I broke it (and he was correct :redface: ) and then laughed & said he would mail me a new one No Charge... To me, that is a man that knows how to run a business & wants to keep my business, and he has done so...
So, if I were you I would stay with the Chambers locks & the lifetime warranty. Jim Chambers knows what he is doing, he has done it for 35+ ? years & has been most successful in building them. He WILL back his product & WILL replace a part IF it breaks.
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