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lead flint wraps

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Labonte: Actually, you are correct ONLY to the extent that the Angle of Impact of the flint to the Frizzen has to be correct to prevent rebounding with a Lead Wrapped Flint. Larry Pletcher had or has a high speed, or time-lapse photo of a leather wrapped flint clearing rebounding from the frizzen. We could not find a Lead wrapped flint doing the same thing with his pictures. Its next to impossible to PROVE a negative, if that is what you are demanding, however.

The Absence of Chatter marks on the face of the frizzen IS clear proof that a flint is NOT rebounding off the frizzen after the first impact. With the angle of Impact correct on a lock, I have been able to use some leather wraps( Thin, raw hide, or worn thin shoe or purse, or wallet leather) to wrap flints that then do not rebound. Thicker, tanned leather which is softer does allow rebounding, and that is what was seen in the picture that Larry Took at Friendship a couple of years ago, now.

Because absence of chatter marks is PROOF, the best way to test the leather vs lead flint wrap issue with any gun is to polish the face of the frizzen smooth, and then fire it 20 + times using first your leather wrap. Then repolish the frizzen and try it with a lead wrap. Assuming that the Angle of Impact is correct( 60 degrees), A light, thin piece of lead wrap should produce NO chatter marks- only nice long scrapes on the face of the frizzen. The thick, soft leathers should be expected to rebound a bit, and leave chatter marks ( parallel grooves from the POINT OF IMPACT, and under that line, giving a washboard image to your frizzen over time.)

The reason for specifying or even using lead wraps is to save expensive flints. A flint that rebounds takes with it bits of steel torn from the frizzen. Those bits clog the edge, and lead to misfires if they are not removed. With a flint set at the correct Angle of Impact, it will scrape steel off the frizzen in a single stroke, with out the rebounding. The flint then can break off a very small edge in that process( self-knapping), leaving you a clean, new, sharp edge for the next shot. About every 20-25 shots, the wearing of the edge of the flint works so far back that you need to move the flint forward in the jaws, putting a wedge behind it to keep it in the new position. That is when you re-set the edge, by lifting the frizzen up enough to allow that new edge to strike the heel of the frizzen, when the hammer is release from full cock, to knock off a thin spawl from the underside of the flint.

A tuned Flintlock makes use of the natural fracture capacity of the flint itself, to keep a sharp edge, and a smooth, functioning frizzen face. That is how you get sparks reliably, shot after shot.

Getting the fastest ignition then only requires that you get that frizzen open and out of the way so that the sparks cut from the frizzen are thrown down into the flash pan. You want to clean and oil that pivot pin/screw as carefully, and meticulously as Roundball does his every time he finishes shooting his guns, and you want to correct the cam/frizzen spring upper arm contact point so that the frizzen doesn't require pressure of the flint to push down the spring to let the frizzen open.

To reduce the rattle and tickle to the sight picture when shooting a flintlock, you need to reduce the tension on that Mainspring to between 10-15 lbs. Most are 30 or more lbs. Some people are convinced that you need that kind of spring pressure to insure the flint cuts steel. That has not been my experience with a variety of flintlocks. Only on badly tuned locks do I find that heavy mainsprings produce sparks-even from soft frizzens-- but then, the flint life is grossly reduced- often to less than a dozen shots before the flint has to be replaced. With a tuned lock, and lightened mainspring, 80-120 shots per flint should be possible.

I have, since authoring that article, found that several companies have turned out frizzens that are not hardened enough. They produce only red sparks( which are actually pretty cold) no matter which wrap is used. I was Not aware that commercially made frizzens were being made this way, and sold on guns to the public this way. One company has apparently changed that with its new, improved flintlock action, I am happy to see. It seems that most of the US casters are now using 1075 steel for frizzens, and thru-hardening them, rather than case-hardening them. Some of the imported stuff is still case-hardened, leaving a thin layer of hard steel that is cut through after shooting a couple of hundred shots. :surrender: :thumbsup:
 
Paul's comment:"a high speed, or time-lapse photo of a leather wrapped flint clear(ly) rebounding from the frizzen" is one that we will have to agree to disagree about. The photo is a 4 second time exposure showing the beginning and ending of the flint with the sparks showing. The assumption is that the wash-board frizzen is evidence that the flint is rebounding off the frizzen. I don't believe this. Before arriving at a conclusion one needs to know the history of this lock.
This lock has been my test bed lock since the mid 80's. It has been fired thousands of time over the years with every type of rock and rock length. It has fired English, agate, bevel up and down - every possible combination. This lock has tested priming powders, lock position- right side-up, up-side-down, different lock handling techniques, etc. In these tests I used 20 trials for a set. The frizzen is original and never been polished off. It has all kinds of marks based on the length of the rock and bevel. To say it rebounds because of these marks (made over 20+ years)is a leap IMHO.

I agree with Paul that if you wish to check for a bouncing flint you need to start with a smooth unmarked frizzen.

I normally don't give an opinion unless I have numbers to back it up. But- I will offer this with no proof: I believe that wash-board frizzens are caused by improper angles and not the lead/leather argument. Set up your flint with the proper angle, and you won't have to worry about the rest.

If you are an experimenter like me and try flints bevel up and down to see what works best, you may have marks different places on your frizzen too.

Regards,
Pletch
 
I think it is quite easy to see what one is predisposed to want to see in some of the photos not flaming your work, it is great and has shown many things that were only speculation before but lead being better with common locks is not onee of them.
 
Actually, Tg, I didn't spot the photo. Someone else did, and brought to my attention. I am NOT predisposed to seeing anything. If you knew me personally, you might know that about me, and not write this.

Larry and I can agree that both Angle of Impact and choice of wrap can create chatter marks. He isn't so sure about flint wraps. We both solidly agree about angle of impact. I happen to believe that choice of wrap also can create chatter marks, whether then angle of impact is correct or not.

My experiences working on locks, and working with other lock smiths is different than his. We can agree to disagree without this becoming a major battle. We have very friendly discussions.I have learned much from Him, and admire his work publicly. I have answered some questions from him, and I hope my answers have been helpful to him.

I enjoy comparing notes, and discussing how to set up other tests to determine "lock time", ie, from release of the sear, to the powder igniting in the barrel. I believe that we both recognize the frustration that arises from the limitation of available equipment. The best part of working with and Talking to Larry is that he approaches the work as a true scientist, without a preconceived result in mind when he sets up his tests. He lets the results speak for themselves.
 
Gentlemen, This is the first forum I have ever joined. I did so on the basis of the intelligent argument carried on in this discussion.I find it quite delightful that men of such obvious experience who have devoted much study to the same subject, and who have come to such different conclusions, can "agree to disagree". I came upon this forum seeking an answer to the very question, and I have found the "answer" - experiment. I look forward to some pleasant shooting, and learning more as I explore this topic and this forum further. Thank you.
 
My search ended, during the course of a thread like this one, when I wrote Jim Chambers (whose locks I use) and he told me he recommends against using lead in his locks and recommends leather. I figure he knows his own locks.
 
I helped Mike Lea the "Gun Doctor" at Mississinewa this last fall. I got to spend three days watching him harden frizzens, fix locks and answer questions.

One of the questions that was asked was "what do you think of using lead to wrap a flint?". Mike's answer was that he had replaced quite a few cocks due to over-tightening of the lead. Lead continues to deform, and after a number of shots it needs to be retightened. Shooters that don't notice that their screw has bottomed out on the cock will continue to tighten and thereby break the cock at the neck.

This is the first time I have seen the screw break before the neck of the cock did. But I think that Mike's point is valid.

I don't use lead, I get a couple of years out of a scrap of Elk hide, so why bother with lead. However, if you feel that lead is what you and your gun like, use it, more power to you, but, make sure that the screw doesn't bottom out.

Many Klatch
 
Stumpkiller said:
My search ended, during the course of a thread like this one, when I wrote Jim Chambers (whose locks I use) and he told me he recommends against using lead in his locks and recommends leather. I figure he knows his own locks.


I use mostly lead, just because. Most of mine are Pedersoli locks. But i do have one Chambers lock that i use lead in, when and if breaks i will defiantly post a picture. It's been two years so far, damn thing just won't break. Must be a better quality than Jim thinks. :v
 
I have used both,,currently using leather.
One thing I would like to add to this.

Pounding a ball flat seems to "harden" or "compress" the lead, leaving it less "pliable".
whereas just cutting a piece off some lead roof flashing with a pair of scissors leaves the lead softer. I had to tighten the jaw once or 2wice, but once it was "set" it stayed set for quite a few strikes, actually, until I changed the flint.

Since I had a pile of lead wraps, I just used a new one when I changed the flint. I went back to leather when I got a batch of "humpy" rocks, It seems to hold humpy flints better.

Sparking for me seemed to be a little better with lead, but not enough to get too excited about...
 
Welcome to the Forum Grumpa. :)

You picked a doozie to jump into but it sounds like you figured out the real answer. "Experiment".

Hope you'll stick around and read some of our less controversial posts.

There's a lot of information here and in much of it you'll find that just like this topic there are a lot of conflicting opinions about things so you just have to read what folks have said and pick out the things that make the most sense.
Of course, there are some things that almost everyone agrees on but there's always a twist or two because everyone is writing about what THEY found to be true.

I know you will enjoy yourself and remember to jump into the discussions whenever you want to. :)

For what it's worth (and it may not be much), I use leather on my flints. :grin:
 
My try with a lead wrap last night was less than stellar, in fact cost me a flint.
Maybe I could have gotten better results, but for the hour of futzing around trying to get lead to work I'd say it's not worth the effort.
1 minute and a new flint and my leather wrap was working fine.

Mind, this is one gun, one guy, one try; resulting in 2 round-ball that won't be going downrange.
 
Thanks for the welcome, Zonie. Always used leather, but am giving lead a try after coming across Paul's writing on the subject. Cut strips of lead ties from railroad torpedoes (I'm retired Railroader). Only a few shots so far, but seems to work ok. time will tell. Also pounded down a .36 ball. This is a good forum.
 
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